Questions about high output pickups

[Béla]

Thanks for all the fine comments.

I take that my suspicions are confirmed. Loud is the new black, but high output pickups just won't have any advantage over lower output pickups, neither with clean, nor distorted sounds.

But how is sustain linked to pickups anyway?



I am the most intrigued by your post bbsailor. I have read your older threads with the low impedance, single wire pickups and now I feel a strong urge to make one ASAP.
Maybe I'll lurk around there a bit more and do my own version - doesn't seem to be too difficult to make, especially compared to traditional style pickups.

The Les Paul recording guitars tried this many years ago but they never caught on. Maybe this design should be revisited in light of increased noise environments and the known limitations of high Z guitar pickups in these environments? Capacitors can always be added to simulate the effects of high Z pickups for those who yearn for the sounds of yesteryear.

Maybe guitarists just aren't too smart?


(I'd give a kidney or two for high SNR pickups if that was the price - not my own of course)

[dazzlindino]

Maybe guitarists just aren't too smart?

So you are a beginning guitarist?

[David Schwab]

under the most scientific setting known to mankind , note the following:

SD jazz neck 94 db
SD 59 bridge 94 db
SD JB bridge 94 db
Dimar SD bridge 94 db
Seth Lovers Mother: wheelchair 94 yo
different perceived tones: yes
different perceived volume: no

That's the amp, not the pickups.

The idea was the higher output pickups produced more distortion. You hear the SDHB on a LOT of records from the 70's, so I guess it was something players wanted.

[David Schwab]

Thanks for all the fine comments.

I take that my suspicions are confirmed. Loud is the new black, but high output pickups just won't have any advantage over lower output pickups, neither with clean, nor distorted sounds.

But that's just not true. Do you play guitar? Hotter pickups have a totally different feel from PAF type pickups for leads. I prefer the tone of medium output pickups for cleaner tones, but the 14K pickups sound much better distorted to me, and you can feel the extra sustain. They are just more sensitive. Even though I was using a distortion petal of my own design, and a a BlueTube overdrive pedal, and a 50W Marshall combo in the studio, when I swapped out a 14K ceramic distortion type pickup for an 8K model, I just couldn't get the same thickness and sustain, and had to swap the pickup back to finish the tracks.

Same can be said for some of the EMG humbuckers, like the 81.

One of my favorite pickups was the covered DirtyFingers that came out of a Gibson ES-347. I had them in a Charvel Strat with a Tele neck I threw together. I ended up selling them because they were a bit noisy, but they had a great singing midrange. They were like 24K!

Loud isn't better tone wise, but it's good for certain things.

[Béla]

I wouldn't compare EMG pickups to overwound high output pickups since they boost their levels; the pickup could have any number of turns, or even a built in tone network to achieve any sound they want. I'd keep them out of the discussion.
Maybe I should call "high output pickups" "low fc pickups" instead from now on.


So how about extra capacitive loads? You say that the 8k pickup was not good enough for the lead tones. But instead of changing pickups, I think one could achieve the same effect just by wiring some additional capacitance across the pickups, thus lowering the fc. Ain't I right?

(by the way, has anyone ever designed a treble Linkwitz transform circuit for guitar pickups? Now that would be fun)


There is an interesting thing I found since my last post.
I asked "how is sustain linked to pickups", and I think I have found an answer.

When a guitar is picked, the high frequencies will die first, and after a few seconds, only the first few harmonics stay alive. This leads to the conclusion, that if you filter out the high frequencies, you will effectively reduce the dynamics of the instrument.

I confirmed this by recording a roughly 10 second long C note on the G string of my Epi LP. The lower I set a lowpass filter on the recording, the longer it kept ringing with normalized levels. (I used Adobe Audition for this, and a second order lowpass "Scientific" filter)

[Djinn Guitars]

As a guitarist, luthier, and lifelong metal head (Slayer-Pantera not Slaughter-Poison) but not limiter to metal and having limited knowledge of the physics of what elements of a pickup produce which qualities here's how I went about finding what I was looking for tonally.

(1) Read all the manufacturers propaganda and try their stuff
conclusion- Large pickup manufacturers know a lot about pickups and what they want . Not so much about what I want.
(2) Tried every guitar I can get my hands on with every type of pickups I could find. Then recorded the specs as closely as I could.
What I found was to my liking for my type of metal -
in Humbuckers - High dc resistance 16k with alnico5
Medium dc resistance 12k-14k with ceramic

in single coils - p-90s 7k-9k alnico5

I know these are all very different sounding pickups and I like them for very different reasons. P-90s are just the most filthy thing ever! Just ask George Thoroughgood (sp?) Medium out put ceramic hummers are very articulate for leads and pretty good for metal rhythms. H.O. ceramics can get to scratchy sounding. As for the H.O. alnico5 hummers, well you ever open a self cleaning oven while it was cleaning and look in? None of these clean up very well and even through a vox have a little tube screamerish grind. But when you go full metal ya don't exactly do a lot of starkly stuff.
For the (Slayer-Pantera) metal folks like me, the H.O. hummer choice is more about the texture of the distortion. Eg.- a "hot" strat single with loads of distortion is like dragging a bathtub down a wash boarded dirt road, and a "hot" ceramic hummer with the same loads of distortion is like dragging the same bath tub down the freeway. Does that make sense to anyone but me?
If all you're worried about is being heard through the mix, get a Tele. You can hear a Tele through a 20 piece band.


I use a lot of different p/ups but, I do enjoy a "HOT" humbucker like a large caliber handgun.

If this didn't make any sense, please feel free to scoff and read on.

[David Schwab]

So how about extra capacitive loads? You say that the 8k pickup was not good enough for the lead tones. But instead of changing pickups, I think one could achieve the same effect just by wiring some additional capacitance across the pickups, thus lowering the fc. Ain't I right?

Then you would just have a dull top end. Just use your tone control for that.

You are leaving out the factors of mutual inductance and the resonance you get with the extra turns of wire. More turns=more current, so you will always get a more compressed oomph from an over would pickup.

You can use a passive LC network to do the top end roll off, but you are now losing more output level, which has to be made up at the amp, and still have a totally different low end push. So to get the level back, you can use a preamp, and now you have an EMG! EMG's are not low impedance coils by the way. They are very overwound coils. The preamp just helps retain high end and helps with noise reduction. They wind their bobbins until they are quite full.

The one thing about EMG's is when I switched out the 14K pickup from my lucite guitar for an EMG 85, I no longer had to use a compressor, which I liked using with that guitar.

Best thing is try two different pickups in the same guitar, one 8K vintage style, and one a high output ceramic pickup. They are two different beasts.

P-90s are just the most filthy thing ever! Just ask George Thoroughgood

Don't forget Leslie West! The older P-90's where about 8K and much cleaner. I had a set in an ES-330TD. Chrome dogears. Those are nice in the neck position... like big fat Strats.

The ones in the SG's and stuff were a lot hotter and snarly!

[Possum]

heavy metal....

this is a good thread, I am hoping to move into heavy metal pickups soon but don't have a good understanding of that tonal world at all really. So how does double screws or double allen head slugs figure into this, what do metal heads prefer? Only hi outputs I have are a set of original dirty fingers, would these be a good study for metal, or what would a typical really good metal pickup be, who makes it, who plays it, etc.

[Djinn Guitars]

I'd suggest solid cover or solid cast pickups with a scull or flames maybe a flaming scull if you want mass metal appeal. I like the double alain heads because you have adjustability for both coils (even if you don't need it) also they always look the same even after balancing. They look new/modern and non-stock. Flat head screws are just so antiquated and that does have its place. I'm thinking of replacing some with torx heads just for something different.

[Possum]

...

you'll get a tonal change if you change to different screw types, the metal won't be the same and the physical differences will make the tone change too. I have an old Gibson pickup I think someone must have put together themselves that has two screw pole bobbins, but isn't a Dirty Fingers or wound hot and has alnico magnet, I wonder if they ever did something like that.

[David Schwab]

Possum, I bet the hex screw poles came about because the screw poles don't put out as much signal, and of course the slugs aren't adjustable. So he went with slug sized screws.

I remember in the old DiMarzio ads they used to say the poles were "calibrated" and I used to wonder if they were making them all the same mass or something, but now I realize they just meant they are all the same size, unlike the screws and slugs.

What works well clean, doesn't always work well very distorted. if you have too much high end you get a "blatty" type of attack. It's smoother with a less pronounced top end.

I had a request for a metal type pickup for a guy with a 9 string guitar, so it was the size of an EMG-40. He wanted it hot, but with clarity. I think I did about 14K with 43 and a big ceramic magnet I got from a broken lawrence pickup. It sounded good in series distorted, and in parallel got a pretty good Stratish tone, which I found quite surprising. He liked the pickup.

I don't know what most metal guys like, but I remember putting together a guitar for a guy and he had me put a DiMarzio Tone Zone at the bridge, and a PAF Pro at the neck. I didn't like the Tone Zone clean at all... it had a hard tone and I didn't like the mids. But it sounded good when very distorted.

[NightWinder]

Possum, I bet the hex screw poles came about because the screw poles don't put out as much signal, and of course the slugs aren't adjustable. So he went with slug sized screws.

I remember in the old DiMarzio ads they used to say the poles were "calibrated" and I used to wonder if they were making them all the same mass or something, but now I realize they just meant they are all the same size, unlike the screws and slugs.

What works well clean, doesn't always work well very distorted. if you have too much high end you get a "blatty" type of attack. It's smoother with a less pronounced top end.

I had a request for a metal type pickup for a guy with a 9 string guitar, so it was the size of an EMG-40. He wanted it hot, but with clarity. I think I did about 14K with 43 and a big ceramic magnet I got from a broken lawrence pickup. It sounded good in series distorted, and in parallel got a pretty good Stratish tone, which I found quite surprising. He liked the pickup.

I don't know what most metal guys like, but I remember putting together a guitar for a guy and he had me put a DiMarzio Tone Zone at the bridge, and a PAF Pro at the neck. I didn't like the Tone Zone clean at all... it had a hard tone and I didn't like the mids. But it sounded good when very distorted.

I don't know what most metal guys like, but I remember putting together a guitar for a guy and he had me put a DiMarzio Tone Zone at the bridge, and a PAF Pro at the neck. I didn't like the Tone Zone clean at all... it had a hard tone and I didn't like the mids. But it sounded good when very distorted.
__________________

The fast response of finger pressure for faster runs....You don't have to work so hard for the note which will give you a fast strong note. Also Compression. Thinner wire, more compression- Compression is useful in higher settings. Controling the compression is going to fluctuate the crispness of the lowend- To much and the pickup becomes almost too tight...

[kevinT]

I would use a high output pickup for the same reasons as I would use a PAF-style pickup in a particular guitar. ....because of the tonal characteristics that it provides that you can't get any other way than using a specific type of pickup.

An amp can't create the tone of a guitar, it only amplifies and modifies the tone or signal that the guitar delivers to it.

A guitar's distinct individual tone is the result of many things but the main one's IMO are the pickups and the guitar's wood/finish (the internal electronics are important as well ie. pot values, caps...etc. however, I'm not listing these with all things being equal.)

The goal, as with any pickup, is finding the right high output pickup and combining it with the guitar to come up with a certain timbre that hopfully the guitarist likes.

Bottom line, high output pickups provide another tone option for the guitarist. Tone that cannot be attained any other way other than having a specific type of pickup.

[ShannonH]

My experience...

....for what it's worth: There is a real difference in the distortion at the amp between really hot pickups. I have a Super Distortion in a Strat, and a "hot" 14.9 k I wound, with A5 and a cover in an epi LP. The Super D sounds like a musically minded buzz saw (probably the ceramic) while mine distorts and thumps the low end, but without the harshness in the distortion. I started with single coils, and have had to "tune" my ears to hear the differences in hummers, but high output totally has its place, just not for everyone. Lots of high out put pu's are one trick ponies, as your clean tones are almost always a bit spiky.

If any one is interested, I have a Tone Zone and a Super D that I would be willing to pass along cheap, say 30 each. They both sound pretty good, but when you wind your own, why keep them? shannonatnorthstarguitardotcom.

[Steve Conner]

For metal, I always liked the Duncan Invader. I guess it's not the high output as such, but the thick, dark tone that works well with distortion. And yes, I guess a capacitor could emulate that, but the Invader looks mean.

The pickup is just part of the story, though. For really heavy sound I always preferred a mahogany guitar with a set or through neck, a stop tail, a high action and 12-gauge strings. It cuts down the speed you can shred at, but I'd rather have a few notes that sound like bombs going off, than a whole lot of weak crappy ones.