How do the metals in Alnico affect tone?

[Possum]

cool.....

ok, now explain all those terms to me in detail :-)
Where the hell do you learn this stuff anyway? Physics books? Porn sites?

[Mike Sulzer]

ok, now explain all those terms to me in detail :-)
Where the hell do you learn this stuff anyway? Physics books? Porn sites?

You need to understand some kind of combination of physics and engineering. Most of those terms are shorthand ways of expressing what happens in a materials hysteresis curve. Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteresis. Scroll down to Magnetic hysteresis. Remember that you apply a magnetic field (H) on the horizontal axis, and see the result (B) on the vertical axis.

[dazzlindino]

Isnt any pickup or change to a pickup, just a way to make electrons move?
There is no "sound" coming out of a pickup, just different intensities of electron movement, correct or not?

[David Schwab]

Isnt any pickup or change to a pickup, just a way to make electrons move?
There is no "sound" coming out of a pickup, just different intensities of electron movement, correct or not?

No, it's way more complex than that. A coil of wire is also an inductor, plus there's resistance to the coil, and capacitance. And the coil has a resonant frequency, and is anything but flat.

Then you have different types of cores which each change the response curve.

And different magnets sound different.

The only time you get an almost pure signal is from a very low impedance coil, which is why they make microphones that way. And even then, you have response curves.

I can wind identical pickups, just changing things like wire gauge and amount of turns, and get drastically different sounding pickups.

Think of it this way, does a Strat pickup sound like a Jazzmaster pickup, or a P-90, or even a Tele for that matter?

Pickups do have their own sound. I started off making pickups with no tone of their own, but now I'm having fun making pickups with various tonalities.

[dazzlindino]

My point is that the electron pulse/push etc. is all that a pickup does,
and changing magnets, poles, windings, gauge all influence this.
Now givin that it makes pedals / amps respond differently , attenuating frequencies and so forth, is what makes it sound different.
Absolutley no part in itself makes a sound unless it is coupled to an amp that has been graciously set up to mimic what we think a guitar should sound like.
On amps changing tubes, biasing, different resisters , caps etc are all changing the flow of electrons, which at the end of the line move speakers, which would not make a sound in a vacume , no?
In other words we are jetting a carburator, put the right jets in and the motor is in better "tune" / sounds better.
I am not here to argue but to learn from Jedi masters
Thanks, and God Bless

[David Schwab]

Well it all starts at the guitar. But even if you put a pickup on a guitar, with strings and all, and you don't plug it into anything, it's not making any sound.

But the reason why it's not simply pushing electrons (which is not how current flows anyway) it's an imperfect device, and that's where the tone comes from.

It's also moving around photons by the way.

[dazzlindino]

So its not moving electrons, but it is moving photons....

But something is moving, how dynamically this accurs is dependant upon all parts that comprise a pickup? A stronger magnet would make a stronger pulse, more windings would mean more resistance to said pulse, but once moving would in effect hit the amp harder...

hehe he said harder....
shut up Beavis....

[Mike Sulzer]

So its not moving electrons, but it is moving photons....

But something is moving, how dynamically this accurs is dependant upon all parts that comprise a pickup? A stronger magnet would make a stronger pulse, more windings would mean more resistance to said pulse, but once moving would in effect hit the amp harder...

hehe he said harder....
shut up Beavis....

Suppose you throw a switch connecting a battery to two wires that then connect to a resistor. Current starts flowing and moves down the wire at almost the speed of light. Electrons do move, but not very fast. The current flows by electrons bumping other electrons along. There has to be a net motion of electrons for this to happen, but they move much more slowly (fraction of inch per second) than the signal produced by the bumping (almost at the speed of light). Photons have nothing to do with this. The flow of electric current is explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current

[David Schwab]

So its not moving electrons, but it is moving photons....

It was a bit tongue in cheek, but my point was that the electromagnetic force operates via the exchange of messenger particles-- photons and virtual photons.

What is a magnetic field?

Richard Feynman refers to photons from a magnet in his book, Q.E.D., The Strange Theory of Light and Matter. Feynman explains that under certain circumstances, including when a very large number of electrons are all moving in the same way, such as going around in the coils of an electromagnet, a large number of photons are emitted, all of exactly the same kind.

The energy in a magnetic field is carried by photons. Photons make your magnet stick to the fridge. Photons have no charge, but they exert momentum, and that momentum causes attraction and repulsion.

Photons are also thought to carry the charge up a wire at the speed of light that gets the electrons wiggling.

And yes, photons are responsible for visible light, and also radio and microwaves. The frequency is what changes. They have more energy at lower frequencies, such as in magnets.

Also see Wikipedia: Photon

In physics, the photon is the elementary particle responsible for electromagnetic phenomena. It is the carrier of electromagnetic radiation of all wavelengths, including gamma rays, X-rays, ultraviolet light, visible light, infrared light, microwaves, and radio waves.

And also Electromagnetic Radiation

Electromagnetic (EM) radiation, is a self-propagating wave disturbance in space which is the phenomenon perceived by the human eye as light. EM radiation has an electric and magnetic field component which oscillate in phase perpendicular to each other and to the direction of energy propagation. Electromagnetic radiation is classified into types according to the frequency of the wave, these types include (in order of increasing frequency): radio waves, microwaves, terahertz radiation, infrared radiation, visible light, ultraviolet radiation, X-rays and gamma rays. Where radio waves have the longest wavelength and Gamma rays have the shortest EM radiation carries energy and momentum, which may be imparted when it interacts with matter.

Particle model
Because energy of an EM wave is quantized, in the particle model of EM radiation, a wave consists of discrete packets of energy, or quanta, called photons. The frequency of the wave is proportional to the magnitude of the particle's energy. Moreover, because photons are emitted and absorbed by charged particles, they act as transporters of energy.

In the everyday world it doesn't really matter.

[Mike Sulzer]

In the everyday world it doesn't really matter.

Exactly; when explaining something to someone, it is a good idea to use the concepts that apply. For what we do, the concepts of classical electromagnetism are a good description. That means Maxwell's four equations apply, and electric and magnetic fields are distinct quantities. There is no need to talk about virtual photons mediating the force; that is from the quantum world.

But you do agree, no matter how you look at it, that electrons move slowly around a wire when a current flows, right?

[Mike Sulzer]

That should be "along a wire", not "around a wire".

[dazzlindino]

So with that being said, magnets, coils, gauge, poles actually add up to force X, correct?
In other words , a pickup changes an acoustical force into an electronic force.
A pickup does not read "tone", only sends a pulse / force through to an amp.
Point is this there would be hundreds of ways to come up with the same force in said X, it would be easier to acheive the same tone using the same mtrls, but not neccesary, yes / no / hell no?

[Mike Sulzer]

So with that being said, magnets, coils, gauge, poles actually add up to force X, correct?
In other words , a pickup changes an acoustical force into an electronic force.
A pickup does not read "tone", only sends a pulse / force through to an amp.
Point is this there would be hundreds of ways to come up with the same force in said X, it would be easier to acheive the same tone using the same mtrls, but not neccesary, yes / no / hell no?

To me it makes more sense to say that a pickup produces electrical voltage and current that represents the vibration of the string at some level of accuracy.

[David King]

Think of moving electrons as being similar to water in a hose. If the hose is full (a conductive material) when you turn the water on at one end -the water comes out the other end instantaneously but the actual water molecules at the hose bib take a while to come out the other end.

[David Schwab]

There is no need to talk about virtual photons mediating the force; that is from the quantum world.

I know... I just like the quantum world. It's just cool looking at the minute stuff that's behind the big stuff.

But you do agree, no matter how you look at it, that electrons move slowly around a wire when a current flows, right?

Absolutely. Electrons are the thang.