Leesona 102 Updated

[JGundry]

Here is a detail of the tensioner.

[chevalij]

Have you thought of adding a spinning dummy bobbin/cam ahead of the one you are winding. You could install it 90 degrees to the one you wind. The tensioner should see it as half the velocity change. Pain in the but, and probably not worth the effort, but would be cool to try

[David King]

So let me get this straight, the wire comes up off the spool,
through a hoop,
through an electromagnetic tensioner,
1 loop around a large wheel that has a spring-clutch tensioner,
up over the "dancer" pulley
and down to the guide.?

I take that back, I see now it's a thumb screw tensioner -not an electromagnet.

That dancer could be a tiny carbon fiber tube with just a delrin loop at the end to raise the resonance. Some sort of magnetic dampot like on a triple beam balance scale could control the runaway dancing.

[Spence]

Right, I've stayed out of this for some time to allow Jon free range to talk about what he's done with this machine.
Perhaps we can now see why these machines were never really very good for winding pickups. The T-Top winders are still in use so those machines must have been designed for the purpose with these issues ironed out.

It wouldn't be a giant leap of logic to accept that the tensioning may have been done by hand. I've worked with a lot of antiquated machinery resolving issues like this. very often machinery is aquired that's not quite fit for purpose having been designed for something else. When a part of that machine doesn't work in the new application the problem gets solved by throwing poorly-paid workers at it.

[JGundry]

Right, I've stayed out of this for some time to allow Jon free range to talk about what he's done with this machine.
Perhaps we can now see why these machines were never really very good for winding pickups. The T-Top winders are still in use so those machines must have been designed for the purpose with these issues ironed out.

It wouldn't be a giant leap of logic to accept that the tensioning may have been done by hand. I've worked with a lot of antiquated machinery resolving issues like this. very often machinery is aquired that's not quite fit for purpose having been designed for something else. When a part of that machine doesn't work in the new application the problem gets solved by throwing poorly-paid workers at it.

Spence you are so over the top negative about this issue it's hilarious to me. I'm just going to say it. You really do not know what you are talking about concerning this machine or any other vintage Gibson winder. But hey this is an open forum and you are free to say what you like no matter how far from reality it may stray.

Here are some facts. The coils on most PAF's and coils made by this machine are way tighter and neater than any T-Top coil I have ever unwound. Gibson also had two Leesona 102's in use until they moved from the Kalamazoo plant.

In addition there is current video for all to see showing that Gibson currently uses felt tensioners on one of its old winders. This is the video done of the making of the Clapton model 335. The leap is to think that they would have ever wasted time hand tensioning a multi bobbin winder at the Gibson plant.

[JGundry]

So let me get this straight, the wire comes up off the spool,
through a hoop,
through an electromagnetic tensioner,
1 loop around a large wheel that has a spring-clutch tensioner,
up over the "dancer" pulley
and down to the guide.?

I take that back, I see now it's a thumb screw tensioner -not an electromagnet.

That dancer could be a tiny carbon fiber tube with just a delrin loop at the end to raise the resonance. Some sort of magnetic dampot like on a triple beam balance scale could control the runaway dancing.

My goal is recreate what the original Gibson tensioning system was. I could alter this thing but I have good reason to believe this is the Gibson correct set-up. Plus it work like a charm the way it is set-up now.

[Spence]

Spence you are so over the top negative about this issue it's hilarious to me. I'm just going to say it. You really do not know what you are talking about concerning this machine or any other vintage Gibson winder. But hey this is an open forum and you are free to say what you like no matter how far from reality it may stray.

Here are some facts. The coils on most PAF's and coils made by this machine are way tighter and neater than any T-Top coil I have ever unwound. Gibson also had two Leesona 102's in use until they moved from the Kalamazoo plant.

In addition there is current video for all to see showing that Gibson currently uses felt tensioners on one of its old winders. This is the video done of the making of the Clapton model 335. The leap is to think that they would have ever wasted time hand tensioning a multi bobbin winder at the Gibson plant.

I wasn't being negative at all. The fact is that neither you nor I know for sure how they got around the problems that you were having with these tensioners.
You're being negative Jon. There are loads of pickup makers in the world and none of them chose to buy that Leesona. I wouldn't want it ever. I would have one of the originals for a museum piece but that's all. I understand that you want to recreate the perfect PAF and that's a really good thing to aim for and I will give you well deserved credit if you achieve that. Until then you should perhaps learn a little respect for the people who are out there doing it day-in day-out.

[kevinT]

There are loads of pickup makers in the world and none of them chose to buy that Leesona.

I wanted it and I was actually going to buy it. My finger was on the mouse ready to click the Buy It Now button....then the voices in my head, especially the one screeching voice that broke through the noise which sounded like my wife, that said..."DON'T YOU DARE!!! ....you have enough unfinished projects around the house to finish and your NOT going to start another project until you finish those!!!"

After that awful delusion, I closed ebay down...clicked on the Ampage forum...and posted the link for you guys.

[Possum]

Gibson video...

The video Jon is talking about shows their current winder and its an old machine, not something new. Its as low tech as the Lessona was, and I suspect was bought after the Leesonas wore out and couldn't really be repaired. The fact they are using felt tensioners there to me indicates thats what was used back then. If something works you don't mess with it. I'm sure that Seymour had to sink a bunch of money into the Leesonas to to get them up to snuff, I do know that the extra one they have they use for parts. Maybe the working one has alot of parts scavenged off that machine as well. Another thing to consider is the type of tensioner that came with the machine, there is no way they would have been able to get tight tension using that thing, it would be even more prone to snapping the wire under tight tension. In theory they could have figured out by passing the dancer but knowing Gibson mentality which basically hasn't changed over the years, they probably just threw them away and used felt tensioning. Its too bad that there doesn't seem to exist any photos of their winding process from that period of time like Fender has.

[JGundry]

I wasn't being negative at all. The fact is that neither you nor I know for sure how they got around the problems that you were having with these tensioners.
You're being negative Jon. There are loads of pickup makers in the world and none of them chose to buy that Leesona. I wouldn't want it ever. I would have one of the originals for a museum piece but that's all. I understand that you want to recreate the perfect PAF and that's a really good thing to aim for and I will give you well deserved credit if you achieve that. Until then you should perhaps learn a little respect for the people who are out there doing it day-in day-out.

Sorry Spence. I misunderstood your comments and your motivation. Please accept my apology.

I'm happy to have the machine and have it back to working flawlessly. I always enjoy restoring old machinery like this. It may sound goofy but I feel like I'm paying a sort of Karmic tribute to the machine and the people who made it by respectfully restoring and updating it to working condition. I bet a bunch of these machines just ended up as scrap over time which is a shame. I'm sure I'm not the only one that gets satisfaction from projects like this. The fact that the pickups made on it sound so sweet is like triple the icing on the cake for a PAF fan.

[NightWinder]

.....

Thanks for sharing Jon...Very Cool. Sometimes restoring and fine tuning these older machines can be a huge challenge testing patience and the thrill of finally getting somewhere and operable is a great accomplishment. We're all giant kids in a candy store for this shit. This was a big gamble for you Jon buying this. Glad to see your determintation and hard work prevailing. Im sure it will only get better. Great stuff.

[Possum]

...

Actually I think I saw it on Ebay too, I thought well cool, a huge risk for one thing and a long fix it up project and in the end it would probably be more frustrating to use than my own home built winder which can do the same wind anyway. I'm glad one of us got it and not Seymour or someone else. No place to put it here either, damn garage is full of machine and power tools already. I don't think I would have had the patience to get it working....

[soundmasterg]

Yah we all know that if it would have come with free beer you would have bought it Possum.

Greg

[Joe Gwinn]

Here is a detail of the tensioner.

I think I understand it, although some more of the surrounding text would be helpful. As would be a photograph of the back side. Or, drawing, if they have one.

Is there a thin metal band wrapped partway around a drum behind the big aluminum wheel with four holes in it? The band might have cork or leather glued to it.

I bet that mechanism takes some skill to correctly adjust.

[David Schwab]

I bet that mechanism takes some skill to correctly adjust.

Yeah, that's a whole lot of adjustable parts! Whole lot of parts in general.