MLP....Just in case

[WBPickups]

Kindly stop attempting to inject courtesy, reason, and good will into this pissing match.

Thank you.

the Immoderator's sock puppet,
-drh

Now that's more like it. LOL! OK, I'll step out again.

[JGundry]

Print them here if you've got the balls.

I got the balls but I got respect or the people that PM email me. I did partake in a little hyperbole with the ass comment. But over time I have gotten about 5 PM's here that had that flavor when it came to you. They go like this, "What is Spence's problem?" or "I wish Spence would just give it up." That sort of thing. All PM's to me out of the blue. Honest, not making it up.

[Spence]

See, throughout all this, the reason I don't give up is because you keep telling us different stories while you insist everyone crowns you king.
Now, if you'd said something like, 'I might have been wrong about so and so....' that would win an awful lot more respect. Instead of which you just keep on about these old machines and how everyone else's pickups can't get near a PAF tone.

Also, you are completely dismissive of other people's findings. You should perhaps temper that approach.
Only a couple of weeks ago I had to point out to you that you were going out of your way to wreck a LP forum member's Ebay sale and yet you carried on regardless when you were absolutely in the wrong. Why do you do that?

As we never see any proof of your pickups, regardless of all these big rock stars you say buy them, what are we to think?

You know what, I love old machines and sure I'd love to tinker with a Leesona 102. So actually it's nice to see someone saving one from the breakers yard. Sam Lee Guy has some old gear and would also love to rescue a Leesona 102. But neither of us think it's worth using one to make PAFs.

I'm only interested in truth and fair play and if you and others think I'm an ass because of that then I don't care because I will keep asking those awkward questions.

[JGundry]

See, throughout all this, the reason I don't give up is because you keep telling us different stories while you insist everyone crowns you king.
Now, if you'd said something like, 'I might have been wrong about so and so....' that would win an awful lot more respect. Instead of which you just keep on about these old machines and how everyone else's pickups can't get near a PAF tone.

Also, you are completely dismissive of other people's findings. You should perhaps temper that approach.
Only a couple of weeks ago I had to point out to you that you were going out of your way to wreck a LP forum member's Ebay sale and yet you carried on regardless when you were absolutely in the wrong. Why do you do that?

As we never see any proof of your pickups, regardless of all these big rock stars you say buy them, what are we to think?

You know what, I love old machines and sure I'd love to tinker with a Leesona 102. So actually it's nice to see someone saving one from the breakers yard. Sam Lee Guy has some old gear and would also love to rescue a Leesona 102. But neither of us think it's worth using one to make PAFs.

I'm only interested in truth and fair play and if you and others think I'm an ass because of that then I don't care because I will keep asking those awkward questions.

Spence,

I'm not interested in yours or anyone else's script on how I should behave. I finished school long ago and am a big boy. But I will give you my script on how you should behave.

But first let me start with this. You yourself know that I simply stated an opinion that an Ebay auction was a fake PAF after the auction was done and on a post not started by me. So what's the problem? Is my opinion no good? Is your's better? You have posted on said forum that I hate the English because of this. Is that rational behavior? Did you know my great grandparents are from Cornwall and my dad visits there every year. Do you really think I'm out to ruin English Ebay auctions? Does it make sense for you to pump that line of B.S.?

There is truth and there is tact. Together they work best. You are void of tact. I gave up on showing tact towards you because of it. However you know right where you stand with me. Others that are more tactful towards you just won't say you are rude to your face. You just find out one day that you missed out on something important. The tactful truth teller has the power. The tactless truth teller is just a drag. Stop being a drag. And your first lesson in tact is to stop assuming the worst of people.

You have actually shown a glimmer of tact in your post. If you take this approach all the time we could have a disagreement and a heated discussion and we would both enjoy it. And neither one of us would have to assume that the other is up to no good. This is the direction I would like to go if your game.

Public forum drama mediation attempt over.

One final thing. If somebody wants to try and do hand wound PAF's cool they should do it if that is what they enjoy. It's not my approach and I feel strongly machine winding is the way to clone a PAF. But that's it. No attack by me unless attacked.

[Spence]

I didn't ever say you hated the English but you said plenty of times all the fakes come from England. Sorry to have to keep reminding you.
The other thing is that I'm not from the UK myself although my wife is English and my children are Welsh. Perhaps I should be asking my wife if she's a fake?

Just for anyone esle watching these exchanges, I'm going to tell another truth here. In your pm to me Jon, you demanded that I apologise to you and hinted at action you would take if I didn't. That's the kind of person you are so don't make out that you enjoy debate because you are completely intollerant of anyone else's view.

That's all I have to say on that subject.

[chevalij]

I think there's going to be a fight at recess!

Maybe it's because I'm Canadian, but can't we just all relax. This whole "my dad can be up your mom" stuff gets tired for the rest of us. My undying respect goes to the first one to walk away (or wind the correct PAF). Sorry, couldn't resist that last bit.

[madialex]

Kindly stop attempting to inject courtesy, reason, and good will into this pissing match.

Thank you.

the Immoderator's sock puppet,
-drh

HUH???

[kevinT]

Feel the love....

[JGundry]

I didn't ever say you hated the English but you said plenty of times all the fakes come from England. Sorry to have to keep reminding you.
The other thing is that I'm not from the UK myself although my wife is English and my children are Welsh. Perhaps I should be asking my wife if she's a fake?

Just for anyone esle watching these exchanges, I'm going to tell another truth here. In your pm to me Jon, you demanded that I apologise to you and hinted at action you would take if I didn't. That's the kind of person you are so don't make out that you enjoy debate because you are completely intollerant of anyone else's view.

That's all I have to say on that subject.

I never said all fakes were from England.

I'm not even sure I wanted an apology from you, what I wanted was for you to stop fabricating lies about my business that were meant to damage it and myself. But you persist in doing it, "The all fakes come from England" is just one of many examples. Some of the lies are just petty and strange. Like insisting that I knew I was kicked off MLP today. I had been getting email notices from MLP about subscribed threads as recently as 2+1/2 weeks ago and I had not posted there for months because the place sucks. If I was kicked off it was very recently otherwise i would no be getting email notices from them. I have no reason or need to lie about any of this stuff. Frankly it's just a tiny bit scary to have these kind of persistant lies coming from somebody online. Petty or not.

Maybe you have stresses that I am not aware of it that explain all of this. But maybe that is too charitable. If you want to know what kind of person I am why don't you PM somebody like Possum or Nightwinder.

At this point I'm just totally creeped out by the entire exchange with you.

[BCRGreg]

[madialex]

LOL

[BCRGreg]

Kindly stop attempting to inject courtesy, reason, and good will into this pissing match.

Thank you.

the Immoderator's sock puppet,
-drh

Yeah, Will, you fat loser!

Go eat some tacos, you miserable bastard!!! And If you didn't pay the Chinese winders yet, get that done so that I can get more of your crappy pickups, you.....you..........HORRIBLE CREATURE!!!!

[WBPickups]

Yeah, Will, you fat loser!

Go eat some tacos, you miserable bastard!!! And If you didn't pay the Chinese winders yet, get that done so that I can get more of your crappy pickups, you.....you..........HORRIBLE CREATURE!!!!

Look here you short little gnat. The Chinese winders have been paid and your pickups are in Customs as we speak. As soon as they get release to me I will send them too you. Alright?

Now send me more of your money so that I can get some more OEM done in Malaysia and get some Tacos from Pepe' my personal Taco truck cook.

[alligatorbling]

[Spence]

So who's the liar?

Quotes from Gundry:

Re: 'Rebuilt' PAF - The Emperor bought it

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Fake anyway. It takes very little leg work to figure that out.
__________________
"We'll provide the sound. You'll provide the signature."

Re: 'Rebuilt' PAF - The Emperor bought it

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bharat.k
What makes you think that? How about the other one the seller had? I repaired that pickup for the owner and it looked real, although in very poor condition to me.

I think it is fake. I may be full of shit. The seller may very well think it is authentic. But it looks totally fake to me. It has that super aged, artificial look that screams fake to me. I would have stayed far, far away. But that is just me. Either way the seller made good money.__________________
"We'll provide the sound. You'll provide the signature."

One reason Baywatch is here is for people to point out their opinion concerning auctions. Good, bad, fake, whatever. If the seller is a member they certainly can speak up if they feel wronged. The seller's feedback is 100% which certainly does count for something. But this quote by the seller from the listing gives an extremely convenient out, "I am in no way representing this pickup as an original untampered vintage piece but it must be of use to someone." Seems upfront but it also lets him completely off the hook if it is a fake. IMO anybody would be a fool to pay this kind of money for a listing with this kind of statement built into it. It's a caveat you can drive a truck through.__________________
"We'll provide the sound. You'll provide the signature."

Re: 'Rebuilt' PAF - The Emperor bought it

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kink56
I would think that discussion is good, but accusing where it is not 100% certain is very damaging.

This is not Ebay, it's a forum with a Baywatch section. Everyone knows these comments are opinion.

Does it strike anyone else as a little hypocritical that the very point of this post was to further trash the reputation of the evil Ebayer The Emperor? Learn to turn the channel.__________________
"We'll provide the sound. You'll provide the signature."

Thank you Spence for looking out so well for this seller. He is probably wiping his tears away with the 1,200 plus, one dollar bills he got from the sale. Every morning I will take this lesson to heart and look out for the rest of humanity with same kindness and vigor that you demonstrated in the above posts. But I'm sure I will do better.

Okay now that I got that B.S. out of the way here are the red flags. (Ebay bidding 101).

Seller has long story about history meant to authenticate but no pictures or real specifics to back it up.

Seller selling it for friend.

Item listing contradicts seller's listing copy.

Listing copy completely lets the seller of the hook if bogus.

Item seriously effed up.

Pictures show little detail. (This one would go a long way in addressing things like warpage due to potting etc...).

And yes, I will say it, it is a "PAF" from England. Not that being from England makes it bogus but it does mean you want a bigger magnifying glass, based upon experience.

When you are selling an item in which there is a cottage industry creating fakes then the wise seller addresses all of these things in the listing. If they don't it's foolish to bid on said item in my book. However these could all be completely innocent omissions by the seller, or not.

None of the above is anything against the seller or an effort to tank his reputation. He may be a totally stand up seller. It is simply how I would approach deciding on whether or not to bid on this specific or any other similar item on Ebay. I drew my own personal conclusions about the authenticity of it but they may be wrong. It is just my opinion so take it as such.
__________________"We'll provide the sound. You'll provide the signature."


Here's the inside on this story. The owner was the real Sam Lee who had moved to Australia and asked a close friend to sell some of the stuff he couldn't take with him.
It just shows what an opinionated nasty piece of self-righteous work you are.

No? Here's some more:
Re: BEST ?? PAF clone ????

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThroBak
Sgt. Pepper,

I thought I would revisit this since I have not addressed it specifically. I have lived most of my life less than an hour from Kalamazoo. I am a third generation violin maker and guitar repair man. As a maker and player I have always been fascinated by the Gibson plant. After they shut down there was an amazing number of "liberated" vintage guitar parts for sale in the area. Many for sale by old Gibson employees from their in home shop. I have learned quite a bit from some of these former custom shop employees with in home shops over the years. And I have bought many parts from them including pickups. These old parts still surface periodically. Just this summer I was offered two early pat sticker pickups and an early T-Top from one of my connections. Sometimes it is hard to keep from crying myself to sleep when I think of the vintage guitars and vintage parts that I could have picked up for a song. But I was very lucky to pick up quite a few while I had the chance. Unfortunately Ebay ended all of that. Suffice it to say I have had a unique opportunity due to my geography and background to take advantage of a resource that most have had no access to. But after 26 years of violin making, guitar construction and electronics repair I don't think for a moment that I am speaking out of turn when it comes to this subject.

Well,
taking into account all you've just written, I don't understand why you are so disbelieving that anyone other than yourself knows anything about old pickups. The only thing I ever suggested you are out of turn about is your complete dismissal of other's finding. Now, maybe that's just your marketing angle, and if it is, then good luck to you, but I see forums such as this as places to share experiences and information about everything guitar related.
We must talk violins some time. I too have spent over 25 years as a violin maker and even spent 7 years teaching violinmaking and repair at the Newark Violin School (you won't have heard of it since it's in England). My point was that I never forget that there are a great many people who know much more than me and that as much as I might think I know, there is always much more to learn. You know, "the more you find out, the less you know". After consideration, you don't always have to agree with everything,
but to come on forums where you don't know the first thing about the other members, and to doggedly insist that you are the only one capable of knowing anything about PAFs shows an incredible lack of humility. I wonder if Seth Lover was so lacking in humility?
Anyway, since we're all having a new start on this forum, let's hope thing lighten up. This will certainly be my last post where I make any comments about a fellow forum member.
Re: BEST ?? PAF clone ????

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThroBak
Hi Wade,

Yes I knew that. The Leesona 102 has three stations that are started independently of each other. You set up one bobbin while another runs and so on. So if you time the whole lot you end up with three staggered bobbin winds with each run.

How cool is that!!
Jon- Seems your in a raging debate again, LOL.



Here's another one of your little posts. You seem to have changed your mind about tensioning since then:

Re: BEST ?? PAF clone ????

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Thanks for the welcome WB. I thought I would resurrect this part of the thread as I have only just now come back to it. I have been busy modernizing the counters on my Leesona 102. Really.

No offense to anyone here but it is clear to me who has real information from first hand research here and who does not. And who is just plain blowing smoke.

Just some information about myself. I have done the hard research. Expensive research, that involved complete (not partial) unwinds of PAF, early and late Pat. sticker pickups. Also many unwinds from current makers plus much, much more that I won't bore you with. And anyone who thinks that PAF's were not machine wound just does not know the facts. Here are some of the facts concerning winding PAF's and I do have first hand experience to share because I own a Leesona 102 winder. First there is no way to duplicate an original PAF wind by hand, you can't even come close. Here is why, the Leesona 102 was designed to do coils as large as 3", when you get down to a 1/4" coil the tolerances of the machine play a large part in how the wire is laid down. Additionally the cam traverse guide adds it's own peculiar traverse. The turn per layer count is way too tight to duplicate by hand, throw in the quirks of the machine and hand winding cannot even come close to duplicating the pattern. Additionally the tensioners on the Leesona 102 are intended for 40AWG wire at it's smallest limit. Seymour Duncan does not even get this detail right, he uses a whisker disk to tension the wire on his Leesona 102. But I am lucky enough to have the original operational tensioners with my Leesona 102. They are a pain in the ass to set up but the additional tension they provide and what the extra tension does to the wire is an important PAF detail. And sorry to say but you can't apply the same type of tension consistently through the wind by hand. There are also some other important details about the machine that I will keep to myself. The beauty of it is that if you have the machine or the parameters of the machine there is still quite a bit of tweaking that can be done with the wind by machine set-up etc..

Now did Gibson use more than one turn per layer count to wind PAF's? I can't rule it out but I see no first hand evidence to convince me they used anything other than one turn per layer count. There is a limit to how many PAF's I want to destroy. I have first hand hard facts concerning this from complete unwinds of vintage pickups. Second hand information from "experts" is usually meaningless and often intentionally so if the person really is an expert. The key information is just too expensive at this point to come by for a maker to share. PAF's being hand wound is not opinion it's fact. Thinking that PAF's were hand wound is not opinion either, it is fantasy. The problem with doing a partial unwind is that one might think that the winding pattern could only be done by hand but if you unwind enough layers it becomes clear that it is a machine wound pickup. But unfortunately you end up trashing the pickup by the time you reach that point.

I don't release any product until I thoroughly research and develop it and this has been a project spanning years for me. Early on I though hand winding a PAF was the way to go but the research and the tone you get from correctly machine winding a PAF just says otherwise. You can get great sounding humbuckers from hand winding but they are not PAF clones and neither is the tone. If you have satisfied customers with hand winding you would be a fool to abandon it. But if you want the right tool to make a PAF ideally the to have is a Leesona 102 complete with original tensioners. I feel lucky to have a 102 with original tensioners. Short of that, designing your own winder with the Leesona 102 specs. taken directly from the actual machine is a very close second. And again even with the right tools there is still plenty of room in how the machine is used to put your own stamp on the finished pickup. Even T-Tops varied quite a bit in how they were wound and I'm not talking about coil offset. But if you want to duplicate the variations of vintage Gibson pickups you have to machine wind.

One additional thing any pickup makers should do is get an LCR meter and use it to determine what grade Alnico is in any vintage pickup that passes through their shop. It can be done very accurately and it is a very important detail to have even if you don't have a machine winder. It is more first hand info that makes it real easy for one to sort out the facts from BS.

Also WB Antiquities are machine wound so are the pickups by another notable maker mentioned.



There aren't many people you don't fall out with are there Jon? Your attitude sucks all the time and you do keep changing your mind even after you say something is a hard fact.