Bartolini humbuckers.

[Spence]

I am partly hoping the guy will just get frustrated and go away. I clearly state on my website that I don't give refunds, I have to stand by it, I just don't have enough cash around to refund almost $400, he did send both sets back, so I do want to go one more push to try to satisfy him. It doesn't pay to have an unhappy customer out there in the world, unless they are a total nut case drug addict schizo head case or something. I've given him 3 options, my clearest and best PAF which is what he paid for, a double blade bucker with magnets as the blades, or a double slug coil pickup. I've told him this is the last one so he better be real clear in his choices. I did tell him to forget Tuck's tone, even Holmes isn't going to give him that :-) Its always a red flag to me when customers name drop, tell me they have great ears, or are a "pro" player and are personal friends with so an so. I don't care about all that stuff, it usually means they want special treatment or free stuff. I just want to do my job and do it best as possible and get my money and make a profit. I got worked a couple times on "endorsement deals" with up and coming "stars" etc. and basically its all bullshit posturing to get free pickups etc. If this guy had just told me he want me to INVENT a special pickup for him I would have sent him to the Ebay winder guys, and they wouldn't have a clue what to do :-) since StewMac doesn't have a pickup invention kit ready made (ouch, mean possum, snarl snarl.....).

Good luck Dave. You have my full sympathy. Been hearing good things about your PF Stars BTW.

[Possum]

....

Thanks Spence. I try to weed these type guys out before I get involved with them, but this one was a total surprise. I probably lose alot of potential orders by being so far behind in getting orders done, but there is an added benefit sort of, the guys who "want it now" and don't buy because I don't have ready made stock and don't have any patience are usually the problem makers. Guys who have patience are more mature and willing to wait for something good and aren't cry babies. The PF Stars are just now getting out there to some customers and they are liking them. They are super sensitive to what magnets are in them, and even to what pole screws I use in them. Some parts really cloud them over and some just work seamlessly. MicroFasteners screws I bought last year sound great in them, but the ones I had made are missing something when you compare the two. I wonder if their current screws are even the same now....

[Spence]

Thanks Spence. I try to weed these type guys out before I get involved with them, but this one was a total surprise. I probably lose alot of potential orders by being so far behind in getting orders done, but there is an added benefit sort of, the guys who "want it now" and don't buy because I don't have ready made stock and don't have any patience are usually the problem makers. Guys who have patience are more mature and willing to wait for something good and aren't cry babies. The PF Stars are just now getting out there to some customers and they are liking them. They are super sensitive to what magnets are in them, and even to what pole screws I use in them. Some parts really cloud them over and some just work seamlessly. MicroFasteners screws I bought last year sound great in them, but the ones I had made are missing something when you compare the two. I wonder if their current screws are even the same now....

I *********************TOP SECRET******************************* are not vintage correct.

[David Schwab]

Sorry David, if this guy wants the Bartolini tone he should have bought a Bartolini. How can anyone defend him? Why didn't he get Tom Holmes to make it? Because he wouldn't entertain the idea.

Tom Holmes wouldn't be able to get that tone either. Otherwise Tuck would be using a Holmes, right? Gibson style pickups are NOT the only pickups in the world, or the only tone to use. Same for Fender copies. Be original man. Those same old tones get tired after a while.

But Tuck Andress and his tone sucks, because he's not using a PAF blues tone right?

And I wasn't defending anyone but Bill Bartolini, who I have a lot of respect for. I said the customer wouldn't be happy with anything, even the exact same pickup he seeks. Go back and re-read my posts.

Spence you just want to argue with people who have different ideas than you do. I'm not interested in arguing with you. I also wouldn't come on a public forum and say some makers' pickups suck. You didn't care for them, because you had an incorrect idea of what they sound like. You want a Billy Gibbon's tone? Get a Rockman! Better yet, get your own tone.

God forbid, someone comes up with an original pickup design, with an original tone... and even gets a couple of patents on it. And back in 1976 no less. Just keep chasing that tired PAF tone.

Why would I want to open a Bartolini? Because they break down with time like any other pickup and yes actually I could rewind them.

They do??? Mine is over 30 years old, has seen a LOT of action (notice the scratches from using a stainless steel pick, and chips in the epoxy from dropping it) and still works great. The point of the epoxy is to protect the pickup. I've never seen a Bart go bad.

You wouldn't know how to rewind one, because you don't know how they were wound, right?

I must remember to ask Billy Gibbons about David Schwab sometime.......

He wouldn't know my name, but ask him about the Matador Red American Showster AS-57 Tailfin guitar that says "The Reverend" on the headstock. I made that guitar. It was a gift from Robbin Crosby. As if you even know Billy anyway.

I also made this one for Robbin Crosby:

http://www.robbincrosby.net/guitargallery/showster.htm



My own unfinished Showster on my workbench

[Spence]

Actually David, you're being argumentative for no good reason other than you can't comprehend simple English. I mentioned that long before I ever made a pickup I was looking around for something that would give me a Billy Gibbons tone. I was badly advised or just sold what the guy had in stock. I was disappointed and cannot recommend Bartolinis for a rock or blues tone ever.

Frankly to suggest that I couldn't rewind a Bartolini shows that you have nothing but contempt for other pickup winders. I've lnoticed that attitude from you several times.Well I've seen your perf board specials so I wonder just how qualified you are to judge others.

So you made a guitar for Billy Gibbons. Well done and it does look cool.

Tell you what David; as you are clearly one of the people who whinges to the moderator about me arguing with people on this forum I'll let you solve everyone's problems on here. What a hero.

[David Schwab]

Spence... go back and reread your own posts. You said:

Bartos are shit. Great bass pickups but way too Hi-Fi for guitar. They are resin encapsulated too. Just bite the bullet with a refund and wave him off with the Agincourt salute.

Did you say anything about "rock or blues"? Did Possum say anything about "blues or rock"? You do know that Tuck Andress is a jazz guitarist?

Possum started by stating:

I have a difficult customer who after trying two sets of my buckers, wanting a "single coil" kind of tone, finally tells me he wants Tuck's tone of Tuck & Patti. These I suspect aren't even remotely related to normal humbuckers. the model Tuck uses is 1CTA. Does anyone know anything about them?

So who can't read English? I gave him the info I knew about Tuck and Barts. He didn't say anything about rock or blues or PAF or whatever! And as if everyone who plays those genres of music have to use the same tones?

He asked if anyone knows anything about Bart pickups, he didn't ask for opinions on Bart pickups as they relate to trying to sound like Billy Gibbons.

My point about you not knowing how to rewind a Bartolini was not meant as an slight about your abilities to wind a pickup, it comes from the simple fact that no one but Bill knows what he's doing with his pickups. As Possum said they "aren't even remotely related to normal humbuckers".

Can you dispute that? They are totally unconventional and come from back when there were no replacement pickups on the market at all. He wasn't doing the me-too thing that everyone does now making copies of Gibson and Fender designs, right down to the construction and materials. We all know how those are made.

So what info would you have to rewind these with? I've been using them for 30 some years and I don't know what he does in there. He gets a lot of tones from the same set of parts.

If you read up on Bill Bartolini he's done a lot of research into acoustics and guitar tone, and before he was making pickup commercially made a solid body electric sound like a nylon string guitar. So the guy obviously knows something about what he's doing. It might not be the path other pickup makers take, but that's cool.

As far as my early pickups being made from perf board... so what? Is forbon the only flatwork material? Do you make your own humbucker bobbins? I had to. You can use cardboard.. makes no difference. I was prototyping pickups, and that was a quick and convenient way to do it. And they sounded fine too. And there YOU go judging people's work again. Based on what?

I wasn't judging anyone... certainly not on pickup making. You sure do that though. Jon's winder & machine wound pickups suck. Those Chinese magnets from JazzBluesRock suck. Barts suck. The list goes on... except sheep. And we really need that here.

I was commenting on you having knee-jerk reactions. You didn't answer Possums question, and just gave an opinion on Barts.

As far as perf board... Is this better for you? Look ma! No perf board!

[dazzlindino]

Schwab, thats trick stuff right there...I dont care who you are.
Wanna sell one of those 57 bodies?

[Possum]

....

Shit, I just opened a test small order from Micro that came in yesterday to see if they were still selling the same screws I got last, year. TOTAL SHIT. I think they are using a Chinese connection now, really bad. Looks like I gotta save up my moola again for another custom order. The ones I had made are still way better than AllParts/StewMac/Guitar Jones stuff. $800 they cost me, maybe i'll unload them if I can get what I really want this time....

[Possum]

....

So if I wire a bucker in paralell will that give me a crystalline chimey tone, I think I did it by mistake once with Guitar Jones parts and couldn't understand how I was getting this really bright tone. Will they still be humbucking?

David, I bet if you finished up that guitar you could get a big chunk of money for it. Of course you know it'll end up on somebody's wall and never get played :-)

I tend to side with Spence on those kinds of tones, if I was an investor and those Lace buys showed me an alumitone pickup and someone played it for me, I wouldn't sink a dime into those things. The demo I heard of the strat version made me want to climb the walls to get away from it. But, apparently they do sell. Tuck's tone works for him but even there, it verges on being annoying to my ears, having Patti there to disstract from it is a good thing. If I didn't know who he was and saw those guys perform, I probably would go up to him after the show and offer to fix his guitar :-) I find it really strange there's so much fascination with his tone, it is such a total "signature" sound, why anyone would want to copy that, when obviously only Tuck could get away with it, is beyond me. It wouldn't work in a band situation, it works as a duet with an incredibly talented player and singer, how could anyone duplicate that or even be interested in trying? Clone thinking. So now you're thinking ok so why am I trying to clone PAFs? Because no one has done it that I have heard, and the back engineering of vintage technology is a super challenge, thats why :-) OK, I'll shut up now....

[Dave Kerr]

So if I wire a bucker in paralell .... Will they still be humbucking?

Yes.

Dave, are those covers carved from a solid block of wood? Those cross-grain ends hold up well?

[David Schwab]

So if I wire a bucker in paralell will that give me a crystalline chimey tone, I think I did it by mistake once with Guitar Jones parts and couldn't understand how I was getting this really bright tone. Will they still be humbucking?

Yes, sill humbucking. That's the old Dimarzio dual sound trick. I used to put series/parallel switches on my guitars and basses, but I like the series tone better most of the time now.

David, I bet if you finished up that guitar you could get a big chunk of money for it. Of course you know it'll end up on somebody's wall and never get played :-)

Oh I know. I've had a few people contact me about those guitars, and one guy wants me to sell him what ever parts I have.

I'm torn between finishing it and keeping it, or selling it. Wont be any time soon though. But they keep going up in value. Word has it that who ever was last making them is going to make them again. I was saying to my partner that we should make some now. We made the original ones and have enough parts to use as masters. Plus the original patents have expired. Half of the features on the finial guitars I designed. When I first started there you couldn't adjust the pickups, and the tail light used a bent piece of brass that made the connection between the trem block and the ground side of the light bulb! It made a loud cracking noise when the light came on! And you had no way to change the bulb when it burned out. Really crude. Point being we know them inside and out.

I tend to side with Spence on those kinds of tones, if I was an investor and those Lace buys showed me an alumitone pickup and someone played it for me, I wouldn't sink a dime into those things. The demo I heard of the strat version made me want to climb the walls to get away from it. But, apparently they do sell. Tuck's tone works for him but even there, it verges on being annoying to my ears, having Patti there to disstract from it is a good thing. If I didn't know who he was and saw those guys perform, I probably would go up to him after the show and offer to fix his guitar :-) I find it really strange there's so much fascination with his tone, it is such a total "signature" sound, why anyone would want to copy that, when obviously only Tuck could get away with it, is beyond me. It wouldn't work in a band situation, it works as a duet with an incredibly talented player and singer, how could anyone duplicate that or even be interested in trying? Clone thinking. So now you're thinking ok so why am I trying to clone PAFs? Because no one has done it that I have heard, and the back engineering of vintage technology is a super challenge, thats why :-) OK, I'll shut up now....

Yeah, I like a lot of those tones too. But I was making a point. Players used to try and get their own tone.. and they did. Now everyone wants the same tone... Usually someone else's tone. No one experiments anymore. It's all generic crap. The same guitars, the same amps, the same tones. It's a uniform! Or they can't come up with their own unique tone, so they go after a player like Tuck. I have a customer that's a big Ty Tabor (King's X) clone. Same guitar, same tone, and his music sounds like King's X. He's good, but derivative. I guess there are many clones out there. I was really into Stanley Clarke when I was younger. I tried to sound just like him. Then a guitar player I knew got to meet his idol, John McLaughlin, and that made me think, if I met Clarke, and he asked me to play, what would I play? An imitation of him, that's what! Not cool. From that point on I tried to sound like me.

I spent a lot of years making guitars not sound like guitars. But I also spent a lot of years playing stuff like the Ventures and Link Wray and rootsy stuff. You can do a lot with a guitar. But just because a pickup doesn't sound like a PAF or Strat or whatever, doesn't mean it sucks. It's a chance to leave the same tones behind and explore new tones. And I'd bet you I could get a great Billy Gibbons tone from that Hi-A I have. Look how clean Teles are. Then listen to Page or Gilmore play them.

Take someone like Adrian Belew. He can take a guitar and make it sound like anything he wants. He'll go from a dead on Hendrix to animal noises, all using a Fender Mustang (now a Parker Fly or Strat).

There's many players who are looking for newer tones. I talk to them all the time. Tuck has a huge following. Bartolini wouldn't even make guitar pickups anymore if no one was buying them. Or the Alumitones, or Q-Tuner, Parker, and the list goes on.

As far as signature tones, Brain May has one. The Edge from U2 has one. A boat load of people copied that. SRV is another, but to me he was doing his version of Hendrix, and I love both of them. Everyone wanted to sound like Eddie. And Eddie was copying Alan Holdsworth! I like players that don't sound derivative. Like the old Clapton tones were amazing, and how the hell do you get those? Then take the Allmans.. great tones, but they just sound like Les Pauls to me.

You can hear the tones I like at my MySpace page. Everything from electronic, crystal clear, to hot humbucker sounds. Often all from the same guitar. I can get my sound from any of my guitars... some have EMG's, Bill Lawrence, DiMarzios, what ever. Doesn't really matter, it's not hard to get a good sound out of a guitar. They each have their own tone, and I like it all.

http://www.myspace.com/davidschwab

[RedHouse]

....So if I wire a bucker in paralell will that give me a crystalline chimey tone, I think I did it by mistake once with Guitar Jones parts and couldn't understand how I was getting this really bright tone. Will they still be humbucking? ....

Yes.

Hey Dave, I know most of you "experts" here scoff at using heavy build, but you should try it, it should get you closer to the tone this guy wants, would certainly get you away from the PAF rut.

Food for Thought:
Don't mis-read me, I love a good PAF tone (got a nice set of Tim's in my own R9) but it just isn't the only sound, and like it or not it's a relatively small portion of the tones players demand these days, even old players who originally used PAF's tend to migrate to other sounds ...eventually. Some players would even go so far as to say a PAF severely limits their ability to find the groove.

I look at it this way, wouldn't you agree that tone is the audio equivalent of color? so just looking at a decent flower garden taking note how many different "tones" of red are in-play for instance. One guy likes the deep red rose (PAF) and will argue with the guy that likes the bright red rose (HiFi) every day, non stop, ad infinitum, ad nausium, but both are quite valid and very desirable colors, ...same with tone IMHO.

I'm certainly not trying to sound preachy here, only trying to insite an open-minded thing when considering others tone preference.

(open minded doesn't really mean you have to build their pickups though)

[Edward R]

Those are some fancy bobbins schwab! What the heck program and machinary do you use to make those! They look fantastic....

ER

[David Schwab]

Those are some fancy bobbins schwab! What the heck program and machinary do you use to make those! They look fantastic....

Thanks,

That's a Dimension BST 1200 3D printer. It's like a CNC hot glue gun. It has a nozzle that extrudes hot plastic.

I designed the bobbins in Adobe Illustrator, John brought the EPS file into Form*Z on a MacPro and extruded the model to the proper thickness, and then we brought it into SoldWorks on a PC, and then to the software that gangs them up for printing. You can see the illustrator drawing under the wooden covers.

We can make things like regular humbucker bobbins and even pickup covers with it. The only downside is it's a thermoset plastic, so you can to be careful when you solder around it. Originally the bobbins had integral solder terminals for the hook up wire, but I had to go with the regular Gibson method because the plastic was melting.

The printer is getting an upgrade so it will use better plastic and render a smoother surface.

It was a one off set of pickups, so that was the fastest way to do it. But as long as we have access to the machine, we plan on using it more. It's great for making a model suitable for molding too.

And Spence I wasn't trying to start an argument with you... we are just having a discussion on a forum is all. Apologies to you and everyone else.

Here's the printer and the bass the pickups went into. I didn't make the bass.

[soundmasterg]

So if I wire a bucker in paralell will that give me a crystalline chimey tone, I think I did it by mistake once with Guitar Jones parts and couldn't understand how I was getting this really bright tone. Will they still be humbucking?

Dave,

using 4 conductor cable, its easy to wire it in parallel out-of-phase, instead of the standard in series out-of-phase setting. You'll get a sound that is still humbucking but more single coiley and lower output. My weird guitar that I made has one of these switches for each pickup. I can bring it over if you want to hear the effect and see if it will work for you or not to get the tones this guy is after. Let me know.

Greg