Few questions about scatter winding

[fjgaston]

Hi
I'm a beginner in making pickup, I'm still experimenting.
I wound some pickups I really really like but I don't always understand why I have the sound I have.
I now wind humbucker pickups to try, I try to reproduce the sound of a genius PAFs from 1959 I used few times and really enjoyed.
I tried different "pattern" I don't know if pattern is the good word.
I think all the PAF ar wound very tight and this is one of the thing that prevent Larsen effect even without wax potting.
I wound an humbucker with 50 turn per layer in both coils very wisely, one coil with 5000 turn and the other one with 5600 turn, and made another pickup with a "crazy pattern", kind of 7 turn per layer or something ... I also made 5000 turn for one coil and 5600 for the other one.
The first pickup "wise pattern" sound a little "nasal" whereas the second one "crazy pattern" have a better balanced sound but maybe not enought "nasal" or "crying" but it was closer to the PAF than the first one.

That is one of my experimentation, can you tell me if I'm correct or if there is something strange in what I discover.

What do you know and want to share about the way to wind a good sounding PAF Replica ????

I have another question about the old pickups, it seems that old pickups where made a little randomly and they did not try to build it for a special position (neck, middle, bridge) then how can you explain that the original PAF I used on a Les Paul 1959 where very well balanced. Does it means that a good sounding PAF is good for neck or bridge position ????? Then why are most of the builders providing different neck ad bridge pickups ? (7,5 Kohm for neck and 8,5Kohm for the bridge for exemple)

I know you'll tell me to experiment all those things by myself, that's what I'm doing but if you have advices for me and all of those who want to wind pickups please gives it to us, it's not all about business (I don't even sell my pickups for the moment) but it's for the world wide knowledge. I really hope knowledge can be shared but I understand that you can keep some secrets about your pickups even if every pickup maker certainly give a piece of his personality to his pickups.

Thank you very much this forum is great.

[Billy Bones]

My understanding is that strings have more vibration movement in the middle than they do on the ends, with the anchor point (bridge or nut) having none. So the pickup in the neck is going to naturally sound louder because the strings are vibrating more in that position than they are closer to the bridge, and the pickups that we put in the neck are a little weaker to compensate for this.

I think that the old stuff sounds so good because we first loved it for other reasons. IE, Buddy Holly or Chuck Berry made songs with those guitars that moved us and we loved the songs. Then when we started trying to talk about a perfect tone, the early recordings were our reference.

Billy

[David Schwab]

I wound an humbucker with 50 turn per layer...

What kind of winder are you using, and how do you know how many turns you got per layer?

[fjgaston]

I'm using schatten winder it has a counter, I know it may be ridiculous to count turn per layer for scatter winding but I wanted to make experiences.

I don't think that we only like the sound of old pickups because old recording were made with those pickups. I tried old guitare 1954, 1962 and 1963 stratocaster, 1959 Les Paul, 1959 melody maker. I studied sound engineering in a school and worked as a sound engineer, I developed an ability to know what is a good sound and what is a bad sound, what is a good microphone and what is a bad microphone. Since I wind pickups I can hear the same characteristics in the guitar pickups, a good sounding pickup is a pickup that is well balanced, with a lot of dynamic (dynamic is the difference between the weakest sound and the loudest sound) the harmonic distortion.
There are physical reason that can make a pickup can sound bad, for example a capacitor shift the phase of the sound at certain frequencies (not only attenuating) I imagine the capacitance effect of the coil is a reason that make some pickups have a sound our hears don't like.
For some reasons (maybe the weird equipment like the leesona 102, not really build to wind small coils is one of the reason) the old pickups have these characteristics, a well balanced sound, no strange phase shift at some frequencies, much dynamic...

The new equipment are too much perfect, they make the wire being parallel in the coil so there is a high capacitance. By scatter winding or using a weird winder like leesona 102 you don't have that much capacitance.
At least it is what I understood from what I red and studied but maybe am I wrong. I thinks it's all about L-R-C. Then there is a little magic thing about every winder but it's subtle.

[Billy Bones]

Maybe you're right. I have always assumed that we liked those sounds because they were the starting point for our frame of reference, and had never actually thought about there being a scientific explanation as to why they sounded so good to my ears.

It seems funny that they got it so right so early without knowing what we know now, but it seems possible.

Billy

[David Schwab]

I'm using schatten winder it has a counter, I know it may be ridiculous to count turn per layer for scatter winding but I wanted to make experiences.

I use a Schatten as well. Maybe your eyes are better than mine (Very possible even though I have a bright light over the winder and use a head worn magnifier) but I sure can't see exactly where a layer starts and ends. And not at a decent speed either. I have been trying to not scatter at all lately and lay the wire down as neatly as possible, but I don't see how, when guiding the wire by hand, you can get any real idea of how many turns per layer you have. Maybe on the very first layer.

The best I can do is try and lay it down neatly next to the approximate last turn, but at close to the top speed of the machine, it not possible to see that. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think you might be getting something different than you think. I also haven't found it matters at all. I get consistent sounding pickups with what has to be a fairly random winding pattern.

That's what separates machine winding from "hand" winding.

[David Schwab]

It seems funny that they got it so right so early without knowing what we know now, but it seems possible.

They didn't get it right, or wrong for that matter. What were they comparing it too? Nothing!

We grew up with these tones, so they sound "right". But they weren't after a certain sound. They just wound pickups until they got something they liked.

If you listen to other old pickups, they sound very different from Fenders and Gibsons, but they still sound good.

I like the old DeArmond pickups better than Fender pickups. But the music we love has evolved from certain tones, so they are the "right" tones now.

[fjgaston]

When I wrote 50 turn per layer it just mean that I make 50 turn to wind from the right side to the left side and 50 turn from the left side to the right side. I don't really know I can call this "50 turn per layer" that's how I understood it.
I think that counting the "turn per layer" is not the most important thing.
I just wanted to point that in my first "pattern" the wires were straight and more parallels and in the second "pattern" it was definitely not parallel that's what I meant by "crazy pattern". I think that having the wires really messy and not parallel will give less capacitance to the pickup then certainly more harmonics in the sound.
But I think that using such a "crazy pattern" will used more wire for less turn, then more resistance R for less inductance L, I don't thinks it's very good for the pickup.
I think the best is certainly a "not so crazy pattern"
I will wind more pickups testing a "not so crazy pattern" not too straight but not too crazy.

[David Schwab]

OK, that makes sense! I still can't see exactly when I've covered the whole width of the coil.

[salvarsan]

I think that counting the "turn per layer" is not the most important thing.

It's not except when you wind in a "perfect lay" or 1:1 orthocyclic pattern.

As a statistic, it suggests a winding density from
which you infer how much scatter winding is on the bobbin.

So far, most people know what scatter winding is
but we don't have any vocabulary for describing it.

If we can't describe it accurately and quantitatively,
can we measure it in a meaningful way?

-drh

[David Schwab]

Very good point Daniel.

That was what I was trying to say, without being to lay the wire down right next to the last turn, the turn per layer count seems to be less meaningful, but is now another aspect of your scatter pattern, or probably more accurately the amount of scatter. More scatter should translate to less turns per layer.

Extreme scatter also probably makes a larger coil, or fits less wire on the bobbin, depending on what you are trying to do.

[JGundry]

For something like a PAF the turn per layer thing is only part of the equation. Just as a for instance the traverse on both of my vintage PAF winders has enough play in them that when the traverse mechanism changes direction the play in the system means that a very large percentage of the turns on each layer receive absolutely no input from the wire guides. These turns at the upper and lower ends of the bobbin are freely scattered because of this. This is just of function of the machines themselves.

One other factor in scatter is the shape the coil takes while winding. Even if guided buy machine the coil shape can effectively scatter the wire to some degree while the coil is formed. If you set the traverse say to make a top heavy shape the wire will start to jump around based upon where the coil wants to pull the wire to maintain the irregular shape. But the coil frequently fails to pull the wire where it wants it to go so instead of getting a very orderly spacing of each turn on the layer you get turns that jump around within the layer from the wire being pulled by or slipping off the coil shape. I would consider this it's own kind of scatter.

[salvarsan]

For something like a PAF the turn per layer thing is only part of the equation. ... These turns at the upper and lower ends of the bobbin are freely scattered because of this. This is just of function of the machines themselves.

Excellent.

This could be one of many types of a "variable pitch" winding with
the understanding that it happens within a single layer ... theoretically.

Another commonplace scatter type is where the new windings partly lie
in the spaces of the layer underneath. This between-layer scatter could
be termed "interleave".

They don't cover all cases but they're a start.

The way I see it, if you can better describe a coil wind,
then you can keep better notes.

I need to think about this more before I post some more ideas
for you all to sling sh*t at (pardon the terminal preposition).

-drh

[kevinT]

One other factor in scatter is the shape the coil takes while winding. Even if guided buy machine the coil shape can effectively scatter the wire to some degree while the coil is formed. If you set the traverse say to make a top heavy shape the wire will start to jump around based upon where the coil wants to pull the wire to maintain the irregular shape. But the coil frequently fails to pull the wire where it wants it to go so instead of getting a very orderly spacing of each turn on the layer you get turns that jump around within the layer from the wire being pulled by or slipping off the coil shape. I would consider this it's own kind of scatter.

I couldn't have said it better myself John....I see this on a regular basis as I am winding

The way that my machine lays the wire is very similar to the Leesona in terms of how it is set up compared to the Tanac winders for example. If you look at the Dean Guitars pickup video, you will see the wire guide of their Tanac winder (which is similar to a ink pen without the ink cartrige). This mechanism places the wire more precisely on the coil and the travarse has more influence over where the wire is placed.

My winder, in contrast, is designed with the wire coming off of a pully-type thingy which is a good distance away from the bobbin...as a result the coil has some influence where the magnet wire is placed. I notice too that the traverse may move ahead but the wire may lag behind in the same position for a split second (as a result of the coil pulling the wire back..also the wire slips and slides off of itself). As mentioned...it also has to do with the distance between the wire guide is to the bobbin....the farther away it is, the more influence the coil has in directing the wire.

I watch this all the time with my magnifying glass.