More Butyrate questions - Which would you choose?

[belwar]

Well i'm at the point I am seriously considering having my own bobbins made from butyrate. I know its expensive but hey what the hell.. Maybe I could sell them to recover the cost.

I've got most of the research done, but it's left me with a confusing question. Based on my research off the internet, the original PAF bobbins in the 1950's were made from a soft butyrate with a fair amount of plasticizer in it. The effect this had is that many of the bobbins warped and curved over time. In the early 1960's gibson changed the butyrate formula (around the Pat sticker era before T-Tops) to use less plasticizer which made the bobbins harder and not bend so much (Thus why you see 60's pickups with less bend/warp in them). The bobbin design was the same though I believe, just a different material. The question is which do you re-produce? The softer one for accuracy or the harder one for durability and reliability? Or somewhere in the middle.

I'm guessing the makers that use butyrate currently use a hard formula. I know seymore duncan has gibsons plastics formula on file, but I havent seen any of the PAF copys they have with warped bobbins.

Thoughts?

belwar

[valvulado]

I would say, go for the harder grade. Anyway, once you have the tool, you can get sample quantities of the different grades and try them out - no big deal...

[Possum]

...

there's one disadvantage you may have not considered if you're really going to do this. Butyrate bobbins are not friendly to being potted. that may or may not be a concern, but wanted to point that out. Eddie Van Halen wrecked a few PAFs trying to pot them and they are famous for literally melting in the potting bath......

[Corona Blue]

A Better Bobbin???

Well i'm at the point I am seriously considering having my own bobbins made from butyrate. I know its expensive but hey what the hell...
belwar

I realize this is an old thread but, in doing a forum search, I came upon it. Just wondering if anybody did end up making the authentic butyrate bobbins? I'm new to the forum and would also like to find materials that are more accurate to the originals.

The vendors listed in the sticky are indeed helpful, but bobbins all seem to look generic and cheezy. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks for the great forum. Really enjoyable reading!

Corona Blue

[belwar]

im about 1/3 of the way through the process but am now moving quickly. im working with a partner on what I think will be the most accurate paf bobbin to date. there are many challenges to overcome as you can imagine. first off is what size to make the bobbins.. there are not that many sets of paf bobbins out there for examination. luckily we were able to directly have three sets of bobbins in our posession to work from and also some research from another maker to compare again. there is also the matter of the material. it turns out not all butyrate is created equal. there is also the issue of if they are perfectly accurate then you suddenly have to make new basedplates and covers. so far our investment is quite large and next week we have to shell out 1900 bucks. basically the point is that I don't think well be selling them..

[Corona Blue]

basically the point is that I don't think well be selling them..

Belwar, thanks for the response... so... was this a mis-statement??? Are you saying that you are not going to make these or that you simply don't plan to bring them to the general market? Bummer either way.

[belwar]

basically we won't be selling them to the general public unless we both agree to it, and as of now we both agree not to sell them as weve put a lot of work into them and want to benefit from that work for a while (on our own pickups) before we make any choice.

neither of us really want to be in the business of selling parts right now either

[Corona Blue]

Se la vi!

Ah... right.... Hey, more power to ya, brother. You're steppin' up to the plate and tossin a nice little chunk on the roulette wheel. I know right where your at. Good for you and I hope it brings you some biz. I think it should! If you ever want to sell a small quantity of them, let me know. I'm just a hobbyist really, learning and building for myself and friends. Heck, I give more pickups away than I sell! HA!! But I wouldn't mind having something that's more accurate than the stuff in general circulation to date.

Let us see 'em when they're done!

Corona Blue

[Woodenspoke]

basically we won't be selling them to the general public unless we both agree to it, and as of now we both agree not to sell them as weve put a lot of work into them and want to benefit from that work for a while (on our own pickups) before we make any choice.

neither of us really want to be in the business of selling parts right now either

Sounds like a plan however I must point out a flaw with your reasoning. If you do manufacturer the bobbin and do well with the new bodbins you have opened up the doors for someone else to copy your idea. You say $1900 is a big outlay to you but not to others. What you will find is that someone will dupe your bobbin and will be selling them before you have a chance to get in the game. You may be kicking yourself in the butt a few years from now.

It will also be easier to recoupe your money selling wholesale and the bobbins you use will almost be free, lowering your own pickup manufacturing costs.

Its something to think about. Wait till Stumac finds out.

Just my 2 cents

[David Schwab]

Sounds like a plan however I must point out a flaw with your reasoning. If you do manufacturer the bobbin and do well with the new bodbins you have opened up the doors for someone else to copy your idea. You say $1900 is a big outlay to you but not to others. What you will find is that someone will dupe your bobbin and will be selling them before you have a chance to get in the game. You may be kicking yourself in the butt a few years from now.

It will also be easier to recoupe your money selling wholesale and the bobbins you use will almost be free, lowering your own pickup manufacturing costs.

Its something to think about. Wait till Stumac finds out.

Just my 2 cents

You do realize that to buy his bobbins they will have to buy the whole guitar, right? Belwar is part of a company that makes very nice guitars. The pickups are for those guitars.

Personally I don't see the point of going through all this for bobbins.

[jonson]

You do realize that to buy his bobbins they will have to buy the whole guitar, right? Belwar is part of a company that makes very nice guitars. The pickups are for those guitars.

I can assure you from experience David that a couple of the big ones will do just that.

[belwar]

Wait till Stumac finds out.

Im good friends with Jay. He already knows what im doing. They are in the process of upgrading many of their pickup parts, and may go the Butyrate route.. but it wont be through our mold.

As for why im doing it? I'm very obsessive and want a very good bobbin. I'm convinced this bobbin will be as close as one can get to the original. Will that make it better? We shall see.

[Jim Darr]

Size is Important

first off is what size to make the bobbins..there are not that many sets of paf bobbins out there for examination. .

Belwar,

IMO the size of the bobbin would be the most critical aspect of your project. The PAF and early patent sticker bobbins I’ve seen all have had extreme warping and flaring issues. This may well be because of the formulas you mentioned for butyrate earlier in this string. I have not seen these on any T-tops (looking at two right now…no flaring at all).

My take for a great PAF sound is that the size of the bobbin is most critical: followed by TPL, tension and winding pattern(s); then magnet size, type and strength; then wire size & insulation thickness; then polepiece & adjustment screw material, shape and size; then baseplate material; and of course, machine wound, NOT hand/scatter/or random wound. Also, I think insulation thickness is more critical than insulation type.

Jim

[belwar]

I couldn't agree more. I think the bobbin dimensions are critical. That was the longest part of this project. Getting good measurements is difficult, and every good measurement comes with more questions.. i.e. Do you account for flare? Does the flare play into the tone? When the bobbins show different measurements do you do on the high side or low side?

[David King]

That would be pretty funny if Gibson buys a guitar from Belwar just to duplicate his bobbins...