Gibson Dirty fingers

[Luijo]

I hope you include some pics of the dissecting proccess...for curiosity's sake.

[ake]

It had 12 screw polepieces Ake

[Mystic]

OK, took it appart today. cream coil(south) 8.16K. Black coil(North) 7.40K.
Three ceramic magnets under the coils (NS) (SN) (NS).I could be wrong about the middle magnet's polarity. The copper tape is connected to the ground. I did not measure the wire diameter, it must be #44. I don't think I could get over 8K on a coil using #43. The coils were not overly full. I did take pictures if anyone wants to see a specific part.

[Sweetfinger]

I sold a set of the original DirtyFingers on eBay some months back. They had gold covers and were potted with epoxy.

They weren't the Super Humbuckers, because they had the adjustable poles. They came out of a Gibson ES-347. They had a coil cut lead too.

Brosnac has some of his details wrong, as you can see in the web page with the same guitar and pickups.

http://www.zen-pharaohs.com/guitars/Gibson/es347.htm

They were great sounding pickups, but they hummed a bit, so I sold them.

I believe they were 16K.

AFAIK Brosnac had everything right. All the Dirty Fingers pups I've seen in person or have seen references to, have had 3 magnets, and two rows of adjustable screws, and no covers. That includes replacements(N.O.S.) and pickups that were original to the particular model. One I remember was the SG "Exclusive". Gibson may have adapted the model for a cover, but they probably had another name and part number for the pickup if I know Gibson.

[Luijo]

I think you got the middle magnet right. It would be like the magnetic structure of two P90 bobbins side by side but with opposing polarities.
The old DFs I've seen have a different type of screw polepieces. Seems they changed it for the new ones.

[Mystic]

The one in the picture was sold as a "70's" pickup. There is no date code that I can read on it. It does say 238 108 ink stamped on the bottom. I wonder what that code means?

[David Schwab]

AFAIK Brosnac had everything right. All the Dirty Fingers pups I've seen in person or have seen references to, have had 3 magnets, and two rows of adjustable screws, and no covers. That includes replacements(N.O.S.) and pickups that were original to the particular model. One I remember was the SG "Exclusive". Gibson may have adapted the model for a cover, but they probably had another name and part number for the pickup if I know Gibson.

Did you look at the link I posted of the Gibson ES-347? Those are the original DirtyFingers, they had covers and one row of screws. They are encapsulated in the covers with black epoxy, just like the SuperHumbuckers Gibson used in many of their guitars in the 70's and 80's. They also have two braided coax wires, one was the pickup out, and the other was the junction between the series connection of the coils for coil cutting.

The ones with no covers are the reissues.

The set I had I removed from an 1984 ES-347 myself.

This was them.



Here's a Quote from Gibson:

The original Dirty Fingers pickups were available on just a few select models in the early 1980s, including the Flying V, Explorer, ES-347 and 335-S.

Gibson reunites power and dirt in Dirty FingersTM guitar pickup

[Mystic]

I posted a question (were there two different kinds) on Gibson's forum. I have no doubt you are correct. We'll see how well they know their own product line.

[Stan H]

Mystic, did it have any kind of cover or just the cloth tape around the copper tape?

~Stan

[Mystic]

Mystic, did it have any kind of cover or just the cloth tape around the copper tape?

~Stan

The copper tape was on the outside. paper tape under the copper tape.

[Sweetfinger]

Did you look at the link I posted of the Gibson ES-347? Those are the original DirtyFingers, they had covers and one row of screws. They are encapsulated in the covers with black epoxy, just like the SuperHumbuckers Gibson used in many of their guitars in the 70's and 80's. They also have two braided coax wires, one was the pickup out, and the other was the junction between the series connection of the coils for coil cutting.

The ones with no covers are the reissues.

The set I had I removed from an 1984 ES-347 myself.

I'm sorry, but I think you are mistaken. I can't find any specs for the ES-347 that say they came with Dirty Fingers. Gibson may have made some with, but that just seems unlikely on a what was ostensibly a higher end semi-hollow. If anyone brought the pickups that were in yours into my shop and asked if they were Dirty Fingers, I would say no. They look more like Super Humbuckers. In fact, I think that's what they are. I've looked at a jillion pics of SG's, V's, 335 country-rock, ES-369, etc. on the web, and in catalog reprints. All(with the single exception of the page you referenced earlier in this thread) show original DF PU's as having exposed coils. I have an original '84 Explorer in the shop right now with the original DF pups in it, and they've never had covers. (16.3 and 16.15K, both with copper tape)

Again, I reiterate, EVERY original old guitar that I have seen that had DF's specified as the standard pickup from the late 70's through the mid 80's has had exposed coils w/two rows of screws. Same with NOS DF's in the original packaging. I've seen earlier models that were T-Top bobbins, later were smooth, and were avail. in double creme, and black. To say that the ones w/o covers are reissues, or made specifically for retrofit is just plain wrong. I can email pics of the Explorer for the curious.

[Luijo]

Well, this makes sense to me.
I've seen only a few DF PUs, but all of them were late70's/early 80's and they never had covers. They always had two rows of screw polepieces and the copper tape. Never cared to measure them then.
Sorry to disagree with you David.

[David Schwab]

I'm sorry, but I think you are mistaken. I can't find any specs for the ES-347 that say they came with Dirty Fingers. Gibson may have made some with, but that just seems unlikely on a what was ostensibly a higher end semi-hollow. If anyone brought the pickups that were in yours into my shop and asked if they were Dirty Fingers, I would say no. They look more like Super Humbuckers.

I gave two references, the first was a picture of a ES-347 with DF's in it:

http://www.zen-pharaohs.com/guitars/Gibson/es347.htm

And then we have the literature from Gibson which says they put DirtyFingers in the ES-347:

http://www.gibson.com/Whatsnew/press...03/dec26a.html

Now the pickups shown on that page are obviously the newer models. The 347 came with covered pickups and gold plated hardware as standard. So those Dirty Fingers were covered. I have read in at least one source that Gibson did make an exposed coil version of the Dirty Finger for the ES-369. I've never seen a 369.

But it says right in there that "The original Dirty Fingers pickups were available on just a few select models in the early 1980s, including the Flying V, Explorer, ES-347 and 335-S."

The guitar I removed them from was a 1984 ES-347. It was totally stock. The 347 has a togle switch for coil cutting, and the pickups have that tap wire. You can see the date on the pickups.

Here's another reference from Vintage Guitar:

Gibson totally revamped its line of semi-hollowbody guitars (with the “wonder-thin silhouette”) in early 1979. They replaced the ES-335 with their first “reissue” — the ES-335DOT — and discontinued the ES-345 and 355, which had never sold as well as the more workmanlike 335. These guitars were replaced by a new model, the ES-347, which combined many of their most attractive features with new trends in guitar technology. The 347 had deluxe appointments: maple body and neck; bound ebony fingerboard with pearl block inlays; an SP-2 headstock with binding and tasteful “crown” inlay; and gold hardware. Its updated features included high-output “Dirty Fingers” humbuckers, a coil-tap switch, Gibson’s new TP-6 fine-tuning tailpiece, and the “Sustain Sisters”, which had their genesis in the big brass insert of Mitch Holder’s ES-355 Custom. Gibson R&D had refined Mitch’s concept, and the Sustain Sisters were four large, threaded brass inserts sunk into the centerblock, into which the TP-6 and Tunomatic bridge were mounted.

So how do we know they are Dirty Fingers and not Super Humbuckers? For one thing, the ES-347 didn't come with Super Humbuckers, it came with Dirty Fingers.

Now lets look at a guitar with Super Humbuckers. A prime example is the Gibson L6-S: http://instruments.garyhendershot.com/Gibson_L6-S.html

What do you notice? The covers have no poles exposed.

Here's more info on the Super Humbucker from Vintage Guitar:

The L6-S: Bill Lawrence and Carlos Santana

The first was the L6-S, which received its first notice in Guitar Player in February of 1974, a sort of wide, unbound, contoured maple-bodied, glued-neck variant on the Les Paul. Even though quite a few of these guitars were shipped, carrying the endorsement of Carlos Santana (who endorsed the guitar in Guitar Player ads beginning in January of 1975), they’re not usually regarded today as an “el Success.”

What’s cool about the L6-S, however, is that this was the guitar for which Bill Lawrence developed the very high output Super Humbucker, at the time the hottest pickup ever. Introduced in 1973 and discontinued in 1980, the L6-S had a two-octave neck joining the body at the 18th fret. There were basically two models, the L6-S (redubbed the L6-S Custom in 1975) and the L6-S Deluxe, a downscale model that debuted in 1975.

The original L6-S had the two Lawrence Super Humbuckers (epoxy potted, non-adjustable poles), one volume and two tone pots, and a six-position rotary pickup selector control mounted on a black pickguard, which offered a bunch of different tonal colors. They featured the larger rectangular Tune-O-Matic bridge and a stop-tail. Natural finished ones had a separate maple ’board, the tobacco ‘burst had an ebony board, both with small abalone block inlays. In ’75, when the name changed to Custom, the block inlays became abalone dots (as seen on the ’75 example here).

Now one thing to keep in mind is that Gibson currently calls the "500T Super Ceramic" pickup a Super Humbucker. But it's not the same as the Bill Lawrence designed pickup from the 70's. All those Super Humbuckers were closed covers and epoxy encapsulated. Gibson discontinued the Super Humbucker in 1980. The Dirty Finger came after the SH.

Now keep in mind that companies register names, so it makes sense that Gibson would reuse names it owns like Super Humbucker and Dirty Fingers, but they are not exactly the same pickups. Bill Lawrence designed both of those models.

I also don't think the Super Humbuckers ever had coil cut capability. They didn't on the L6-S. Does anyone know what the original L6-S version of the Super Humbucker measures? I don't think it's as hot as the Dirty Fingers. Gibson says the Dirty Fingers is the hottest pickups they ever made. The set I had measured around 16K, so they weren't Super Humbuckers.

What references are you using for your info? I don't understand why you can't find any specs... I spent five minutes on Google and found some.

Some more mentions:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/arc...p/t-96686.html

I contacted Gibson support asking what kind of pickups were in this guitar, and they indicated that at first Series 7 or Dirty Fingers pickups were used in the ES-347, but then they changed over to Gibson "Original Humbuckers" some time before 1981 (?), they weren't exactly sure. Sounded like they would use whatever pickups were "on hand at the time".

Obviously they were still putting them in when the 347 I worked on was made!

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/r...on/ES-347/10/1

ES 347 man. in 1982 with lam. maple body, ebony fretboard, gold hardware, tunable tailpeace. 2 dirty-fingers HB's with coil-tap-switch, 3-way-toggleswitch. The guitar was baught as a used one in 1994 for about 2.400,-- DM in a near mint condition with original Gibson hardshell case.

Further down on page:

1979 Gibson ES-347 2 volume, 2 tone, pickup select, 2 way tap coil switch, Covered "Dirty fingers" pups, stop tail piece, Antique Sunburst, Ebony fretbooard, Gold hardware incluing Gibson tuners, double bound maple body, and neck. Sweet 335 sound with great Gibson action and playability.

Even further:

I have not had the covers off to identify the pickups, but the guitar seems to drive amps quite strongly, so there seems plenty of gain. The sound from the humbuckers tends overall to the bassy side, but of course brightens up considerably when switched to the single coil position, making a wide sound range available. Lots of sustain there when wanted. I love the sounds I can make with this guitar.

Good luck getting those covers off!

Even further:

The electronics are 2x tone, 2x volume, plus a 3-way switch and a coil tap. The controls function in the standard Gibson manner, and the coil tap puts both pickups into single coil mode at once. Therefore you have 6 sounds to choose from: Bridge HB; Neck HB; Bridge+Neck HB's; Bridge SC; Neck SC:, Bridge+Neck SC's. The tone pots are 100K and the volume pots are 300K. The pickups are covered Dirty Fingers, otherwise known in that format as "Series 7" humbuckers. More on this in the "Sound" section...

The pickups (16K! Super hot!) are quite indistinct and tubby in my opinion. I raised and lowered and adjusted polepieces for a couple of weeks, then decided to start tweaking.

More on that page:

Info that I have says they have Series 7 pickups...

Further down:

1980 Natural finish with TP-6 tailpiece, gold hardware and ebony fretboard. Coil tap switch provides versatility although I typically play rock and metal so I use the humbucking sound. Bought used and original owner took pretty good care of it but some of the gold plating was worn. Solid guitar. Rarety makes people ask what it is. Supposed to have "Dirty Fingers" high output pickups. Not sure if they are but they do drive my amp setup pretty hard and get great distorted, although not particularly bright tones. Certainly not a Les Paul sound but I already have one of those. Paid a high price for this guitar but have wanted one for years.

OK.. I think that does it.

So as we can see.. plenty of evidence that Gibson made covered Dirty Fingers pickups and installed them in the ES-347. Once again, the pickups in the photo I posted were 16K, I know because I measured them before I sold them on eBay ... very powerful and lots of mids. I used them in my main guitar for a while but changed them out to some old Overlend (EMG) pickups because I needed something quieter for recording.

And we also know that Gibson made uncovered versions of the Dirty Fingers... so I think it's safe to say if they read 16K they are Dirty Fingers. (if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...)

So the evidence shows both covered and uncovered versions of the Dirty Fingers. Why does the covered version has one set of screw poles? Probably because that's the covers they had on hand.

[Mystic]

I never did get a response from Gibson......figures.....

[Sweetfinger]

Well, you've settled it!

The pickups you have been calling "Dirty Fingers" are in fact, "Series 7" humbuckers, which may, or may not be just a covered epoxy sealed DF. Since the Epoxy sealed pickups have a different bottom plate and construction, there may be other differences as well. Yes, I know how they are different because I've had to repair the bottom plate/strip on these abominations.

My references include Gibson catalog reprints from the time period, Various guitar tomes on Gibson history, Gruhn's guide to vintage guitars, personal observation, the Brosnac book, and research on the web. I have twenty years experience buying, selling, and appraising vintage gear. Can you tell the difference between an original patent sticker humbucker, and a later patent sticker T-Top that someone has carefully sanded the "T" and molding marks off? I can, from just looking at it from 5 feet away. That's the kind of crap I had to know to keep from getting burned and losing money.

Most of the info in print about vintage Gibsons focuses on the "classic" years(pre-1970). No "serious" collector ever gave a crap about ANY Gibson from the late Norlin period. That's why there's still not much info on the minutia of guitar specs from the Mid- '70's to the mid- 80's. That's also a time period when Gibson was throwing together ANY parts that were laying around just to sell it. A lot of models lasted only a year or two. This is also the same time period that Gibson started calling in outside experts to tell them "how they used to make them" because much of the tooling, people, and records had been lost.

I take ANYTHING that Gibson says today regarding their own history with a big grain of salt(unless verified by Walter Carter). Many times I have had to tell customers that their guitar isn't what Gibson "said" it was. One guy told me he had an early 60's Les Paul with the SG body. He'd sent the serial # and some snapshots to Gibson. They said it was a "Les Paul", so in his mind that's what it was. Unfortunately, the doofus at Gibson failed to look closely at the headstock.....the only difference between an early 60's pre-transition Les Paul model and a post-transition SG.....is the name "Les Paul" on a decal, or truss cover. the customers was dead stock and had neither, so was NOT a Les Paul. Gibson has been getting better. They used to spout out a year for your guitar if you gave them a serial #. Now they realize that many years have overlapping/duplicate numbers and now will give a general possible range for those years. Of course they can be TOO cautious. I just saw a post where someone had been told by Gibson that they could not date an early 80's explorer because all the records were "in storage". I can tell you the day of the year, factory, and number off the line on that day from the serial.

as for accuracy of the Gibson press release when they say the DF pickups were available only "on a select few" models", those select few were:

Les Paul XR-1
Les Paul XR- II
SG special 400
SG Exclusive
Later Flying V/2
Flying V
Flying V B
XPL Custom
GK-55
335 S Deluxe
335 S Custom
ES-335 Pro
ES-335 Country Rock Regular
ES-369

This list is by no means complete, these are just models that I found that SPECIFIED Dirty Fingers pups. I don't have access to the big archive of materials that I used to, but undoubtedly there were more. Many models have a listing of "exposed coil humbuckers" that probably means they got DF's. Examples would be the Explorer and variants, Flying V XPL, Spirit series, and probably some LP variants around '84 or '85, which seems to be the peak of Gibson's use of DF's on number of models.

There's some nice but sadly incomplete SG catalog scans here:

http://www.everythingsg.com/catalogs...special400.jpg

this shows an original UNCOVERED(as they all were) DF, and just for giggles and grins, lets see a picture of some "Super Humbuckers" in situ:

http://www.everythingsg.com/catalogs...20Standard.jpg

Note that they have polepieces....just like the pickups you are calling DF's. This is WELL before the 500T.

I'll ask Gibson if they have specifications or production notes on ALL the pickups avail. from 1978 to 1985, but they probably have very little info on hand.

I have tried here to enlighten the misinformed or misguided, only to meet with bizarre and fervent denial. This will probably be my last post in this little pissing contest. I've got better things to do than teach pigs to sing. I hope the info I've provided is useful to others out there in the world.