Polysol versus Plain Enamel?what is the tone difference?

[bmf5150]

what is the tone difference between plain enamel and polysol wire?
stan

[bmf5150]

any opinions out there?i hear its a big debate by people.

[EFK]

Someone who knows what they're doing could probably wind with either to obtain whatever sound they want. I think at the base level and within the realm of Gibson HB, you're basically looking at a difference b/t a paf and a later patent #/early t-top. Things being equal (magnet grade, dc resistance etc.) the later poly pickups sound a bit more biting, more mid scooped, a little more brash. Not necessarily in a bad way, depends upon exactly what you're after. But so many other factors may be at play there - someone who's in the know w/ much winding experience ought to respond here.

[SkinnyWire]

A few are just waiting for the first arguable shot to be fired. It's really a discussion not much worth having anymore. Search function here should turn up decent results.

[salvarsan]

A few are just waiting for the first arguable shot to be fired.

I believe the act is usually referred to as "a troll", much like poking a stick in a hornets' nest and running like hell.

Allow me:
There is no audible difference between
different magnet wire insulation enamels
when used in guitar pickups.

None. Never was, never will be.

Those who paid attention will realize that this is
a deliberately inflammatory statement and will ignore it.

Of course, there will always be a few who get colonic spasms over trolls.

It's really a discussion not much worth having anymore. Search function here should turn up decent results.

What I seem to detect is that audible differences between
insulations are relatively small and that the thickness matters
more than the type. A heavy build formvar will sound different
from a single build polyester, but not so much from a heavy build
polyester.

Then, too, my ears aren't getting younger.

If you need to replicate old pickup designs, then you need
the older enamel or formvar types.

Otherwise, you work with what is available, usually solderable polyester.
Most people work with nothing else and have a long list of satisfied customers.

-drh

[bmf5150]

no problem,didnt want to start any trouble.just wanted to see what most of the opinions where..thanks guys..ill do a search.by the way,great site.im a newbie.not interested in winding,just find pickups interesting...

[madialex]

Of course, there will always be a few who get colonic spasms over trolls.
-drh

Now look what you did, you got my colon in a spasm.... oops, wait I think it's just gas

[Mark Hammer]

Salvarsan nailed it. In an electromagnetic device like a pickup, the "sound" is never from the chemical properties of something like the insulation, but rather from the physical concomitants that might come along with that substance. So, it may well be that over time one insulation shrinks in volume a little more than another. That may introduce different operating characteristics in the coil. But those different characteristics are not a result of the chemistry. They are a result of the changing spatial arrangement of the turns in that coil. You will note, as well, that what may (or may not) happen to a coil over time, after having been made with substance X, is entirely separate from the tone resulting from a coil you wind today using that same substance.

I won't scold anyone to thoroughly, though. It is a common enough occurrence in all the social and life sciences that people mistake something which is only correlated with an outcome as having caused that outcome.

[salvarsan]

"Insulation type" thread

This June 2007 thread on insulation type got into the details:
http://music-electronics-forum.com/s...ead.php?t=3547

Pay attention at the points where Madialex,Possum, and others comment
about how the pickup sound differs with different wire insulations.

-drh

[Suprosuper man]

if all things are equal tension and number of turns , feed of the wire across the bobbin , then the one thing that insulation might effect is spacing between wires since one type of insulation might form a thicker coating on the wire than the other, which in turns forces the wires to rest a little further apart or closer together....

i think one of the previous posts on this forum had video of a tour through the seymor factory , and i think wire coatings is mentioned in the video too...

other than that I would agree with the above post about shrinkage of the coating over time effecting the spacing and tightness of the coil. ...so yeah i too dont think there is any chemical interaction ......wire spacing is probably what is effected most by different types of wire coatings since tightness or looseness of wires could change tone...

slightly off topic - in the electrical industry, wire coatings, composition, thickness, and temperature rating are big factors in the installation of electrical equipment, but even in those situations the current in the wire has more effect on the breakdown of the insulation than the insulation will ever have on current flow within the conductor itself.....

thats my 2 cents worth...

check out the post on this forum about the seymor factory tour...its a real good post..

[salvarsan]

if all things are equal tension and number of turns , feed of the wire across the bobbin , then the one thing that insulation might effect is spacing between wires since one type of insulation might form a thicker coating on the wire than the other, which in turns forces the wires to rest a little further apart or closer together....

If, in the USA, you order single build #42 wire, you receive the same insulation thickness +/-7% regardless of insulation type in accordance with the NEMA 1000 specification.

Grab a free copy of the spec at:
http://www.nema.org/stds/mw1000.cfm/

the seymor factory , and i think wire coatings is mentioned in the video too...

other than that I would agree with the above post about shrinkage of the coating over time effecting the spacing and tightness of the coil. ...so yeah i too dont think there is any chemical interaction ......wire spacing is probably what is effected most by different types of wire coatings since tightness or looseness of wires could change tone...

Wire spacing is very important to the sound, otherwise a "perfect lay" wind wound sound no different from a scatter wind.

When you scatter wind less, you get more distributed capacitance between windings, not to mention inductive coupling. This is where the insulator sonic character starts to show itself.

-drh

[SkinnyWire]

Allow me:
There is no audible difference between
different magnet wire insulation enamels
when used in guitar pickups.

None. Never was, never will be.

I couldn't agree more.

Also, I don't think the thread starter was actually trying to troll, but the topic is one of those hot types hence my comment.

[Mal88]

Think Bifilar!!

Think laterally! Think Bifilar!

If the winding was bifilar wound (ie two windings together on the one bobbin at the same time) and then series aiding connected, then as these pair of wires are effectively parallel with each other, as their potential is effectively constant between the windings, then the inter-winding capacitance is considerably reduced (if not halved) - so the self resonant peak (if it has not been swamped out by the volume / tone pots' resistances, and the cable capacitance) could be raised by about half an octave! So who gives a damn about a little enamel insulation capacitance variation?