Reverse wound vs reversed electrical polarity

[kayakerca]

For a Strat pickup as an example. . .

Is there any tonal difference between a reverse wound pickup compared to a forward wound pickup with the electrical polarity reversed (positive on the insider of the coil nearest the magnets vs. positive on the outside of the coil furthest from the magnets)? The question relates to building a winding machine and whether or not you should build a winding plate on both ends of the spindle (to provide for true reverse winding operation) or just reverse the electrical polarity on the forward wound pickup to achieve the effect of reverse winding.

I know, probably a stupid question.

Thanks in advance,

kayakerca. . .

[Magnut]

When it comes to building a winding machine, you really don't need to put a plate on either end of the shaft. To do a RW all you would need to do is mount the bobbin upside down and that would allow you to reverse wind.

Edit* Thinking about how other people might mount their bobbin, if you use double sided sticky tape I don't know if there would be enough surface area to keep the bobbin secure when mounting upside down. All of my bobbins are held in place by a screw so I don't worry about it flying off.

So maybe others can chime in on whether this works or not with an asymmetrical base plate spinning around unsecured.

[David Schwab]

A few members here have said they can hear a difference. I don't hear it, but I don't make Strat pickups.

One reason might be the capacitance between the inner windings and the magnets.

Most humbuckers are wound with the coil going the same way, and then the electrical polarity is reversed.

[David Schwab]

When it comes to building winding machine, you really don't need to put a plate on either end of the shaft. To do a RW all you would need to do is mount the bobbin upside down and that would allow you to reverse wind.

That works fine, unless parts of your bobbin stick out too far. My bobbins are built around steel blades that stick out the bottom, so I always wind with the top of the bobbin facing the winder.

But you can make a faceplate that accommodates that.

That said, I never wind in reverse.

[Magnut]

That works fine, unless parts of your bobbin stick out too far. My bobbins are built around steel blades that stick out the bottom, so I always wind with the top of the bobbin facing the winder.

But you can make a faceplate that accommodates that.

That said, I never wind in reverse.

Yep, I have adapters that take care of any issues like a part that sticks out.

[big_teee]

For a Strat pickup as an example. . .

Is there any tonal difference between a reverse wound pickup compared to a forward wound pickup with the electrical polarity reversed (positive on the insider of the coil nearest the magnets vs. positive on the outside of the coil furthest from the magnets)? The question relates to building a winding machine and whether or not you should build a winding plate on both ends of the spindle (to provide for true reverse winding operation) or just reverse the electrical polarity on the forward wound pickup to achieve the effect of reverse winding.

I know, probably a stupid question.

Thanks in advance,

kayakerca. . .

Fender actually reversed the direction on their RWRP pickups.
Here's the reasoning behind it.
On a standard later model grey bottom pickup.
The bridge and neck were wound counter clockwise from the top of the bobbin.
The start lead was grounded and the finish lead was wired to output.
If the start lead shorted to the rod magnets, which was common with winding right over the magnets.
If it shorted you only lose a few turns, and its grounded anyway.
The middle pickup was wound Counter Clockwise, so the start lead could be grounded, like the neck and bridge.
Most of us now wind all 3 bobbins the same direction.
It's important to tape or lacquer the magets so you don't get a short and ground out the output lead.
Also you still have to reverse the polarity of the Magnets.
It's nice to have the capability to reverse wind in case you do rewinds, and want to keep things vintage.
Good Luck,
Terry

[kayakerca]

Thanks everyone for the input. So I guess I can summarize what I've learned.

1. It is questionable as to whether most could hear a tonal difference between a RW pickup and one with the electrical polarity reversed.

2. RW'g would allow for the ground to be on the pole pieces and therefore not as important as significant an issue if it shorts on pole pieces.

3. Spray the flatwork an pole pieces with lacquer to prevent the effects of shorting on pole pieces.

4. If you are going to RW a Strat pickup on a single direction winder, you will need to build a gig as the pole pieces stick out the top of the top flatwork which would be mounted to the face of the spindle.

Thanks again everyone!

Take Care,

kayakerca. . .

[big_teee]

Thanks everyone for the input. So I guess I can summarize what I've learned.

1. It is questionable as to whether most could hear a tonal difference between a RW pickup and one with the electrical polarity reversed.

2. RW'g would allow for the ground to be on the pole pieces and therefore not as important as significant an issue if it shorts on pole pieces.

3. Spray the flatwork an pole pieces with lacquer to prevent the effects of shorting on pole pieces.

4. If you are going to RW a Strat pickup on a single direction winder, you will need to build a gig as the pole pieces stick out the top of the top flatwork which would be mounted to the face of the spindle.

Thanks again everyone!

Take Care,

kayakerca. . .

One more thing I think you got it, but on Bridge an Neck, the magnets are South up.
On the Middle you would reverse the wiring, and the magnets would be North up.
Lacquer doesn't always work. Most of us put a thin layer of scotch tape on the bobbin before winding.
Good Luck,
B_T

[kayakerca]

One more thing I think you got it, but on Bridge an Neck, the magnets are South up.
On the Middle you would reverse the wiring, and the magnets would be North up.
Lacquer doesn't always work. Most of us put a thin layer of scotch tape on the bobbin before winding.
Good Luck,
B_T

Thanks for the tip on the tape, I haven't seen that anywhere. I am pretty comfortable with the polarity and in phase out of phase stuff wrt to the electrical polarity of windings and the magnetic field polarity of the magnets. I've read Mario Milan's "Pickups Windings and Magnets. . . and the Guitar Became Electric", Donald Brosnac's "Guitar Electronics for Musicians", Les Schatten's "The new Book of standard Wiring Diagrams" and Paul Balmer's "The Fender Stratocaster Handbook" among other in preparation for taking a run at building pickups. All cover to cover. Also have had a peek at Jason Lollar's Pickup Winder book and some other winder building resources. I'm out there trying to pickup as much knowledge as I can before I take the plunge. The way I figure it, the more knowledge you acquire, the faster the learning curve and the fewer the mistakes (and actually being able to figure out what the mistakes actually are.

This looks like a great place to learn.

Thanks again all.

Take Care,

kayakerca. . .

[David Schwab]

It's nice to have the capability to reverse wind in case you do rewinds, and want to keep things vintage.

Well reverse winds for Strats would make them vintage 1980?

But that's true for Jazzmasters and Jazzbasses, etc.

[big_teee]

Well reverse winds for Strats would make them vintage 1980?

But that's true for Jazzmasters and Jazzbasses, etc.

Whatever!
It's still nice to have that capability.
I have rewound several vintage bass Jazz and P-bass that were reverse wound.
And for what the vintage shop pays me I try to use period correct wire(the best I can).
And I wind them back like I take them apart.
You can do yours however you like, but on rewinds I try to make my customer happy.
Good Luck however you decide to do it.
That's my .O2 worth, and everyone has their own Ideas and do things a bit different.
I like to throw differnt ideas out here, then a guy or gal can make their own mind up.
Rock On!
B_T

[kayakerca]

That's my .O2 worth, and everyone has their own Ideas and do things a bit different.
I like to throw differnt ideas out here, then a guy or gal can make their own mind up.
Rock On!
B_T

Well, after all the input, and since I still have the opportunity to put a spindle on each end of the mandrel shaft, one on each end it will be. Can't hurt, right?

Take Care,

kayakerca. . .

[captcoolaid]

Thanks Big Tee. I always wondered why they RWRP the middle. I always thought it was for and out of phase affect. I to do a lot of vintage single coils and have a some 1954 - 63 heavy form var for just these winds. If you are looking for some down the road I usually find suppliers that have more than i can afford. useually Dodge phelps wire and enameled wire but on occasion I find old Form Var.

[big_teee]

Well, after all the input, and since I still have the opportunity to put a spindle on each end of the mandrel shaft, one on each end it will be. Can't hurt, right?

Take Care,

kayakerca. . .

Absolutely, it can't hurt.
The double ended winder sure looks like the way to go, if it's not a lot of extra trouble.
Good Luck,
Rock Steady!
B_T

[David Schwab]

Thanks Big Tee. I always wondered why they RWRP the middle. I always thought it was for and out of phase affect.

It's for hum cancelation when using a 5-way switch on positions 2 and 4. That's why I made the joke about circa 1980, since Strats were never able to use 2 pickups as originally intended.

The magnets need to be reversed on the middle pickup as well. If the magnets are not reverse polarity, then you will have an out-of-phase affect.