Tension and DCR question

[Danelectron]

I recently developed a traverse guide system for my homebuilt winder and am amazed at how much more bobbin space I end up with due to more consistant (though still scattered) TPL. I was scattering them so bad before that I would fill a bobbin to the edges just to get 5000 turns. I wound two humbucker coils to 5000 turns give or take 5 or so getting set up. I tend to spin the bobbin back and forth tripping the count sensor and nearly always forget to zero it when I hit the pedal. For DCR I got 5.3K and 5.9K with 42 HFV on two coils. That seems very high. Is this due to inconsistant tension? What is a more realistic value? I don't have a mechanical tensioner at this point but am looking into something. I double checked my counter and it is right on. I wound 100 turns at a much higher speed than I wind at and hand counted them off. Thanks for any insite.

[Danelectron]

OK, I posted this question to a friend who responded with the link below. Inputting my wire specs, bobbin and wind count the result shows my scenario as a tight machine wind. Very interesting outcome with this new traverse. It exposed the tension as a wild variable via my hand method. The extra tension would also explain why I have so much spare room on a standard HB bobbin.




Coil Estimator

[David Schwab]

Two things, you are getting more wire on the coil, so the DC resistance is higher. Also, if you stretch the wire, the resistance will be higher.

Humbuckers shouldn't be scattered at all. PAFs were very neatly machine wound. But changing the turns per layer will give you different tones.

[Ward]

Yeah what he said, I don't think formvar is the best for hummers either. Get some 42 spn, the red stuff or some PE 42 but formvar IMO isn't great for hummers. I recently wound a set of strat pickups with 42 pe, I'm hand winding but can lay a tpl pretty even, I would them with 200tpl and man they sound great, a LOT better than another set of the same wire that I wound to around 70 tpl both with the same amount of turns. Dave's very correct when he says to wind hummers with as little scatter a pos, you'll get a better sounding pickup. I just wound a 5K hummer with 42 PE, I put 100tpl on it and it's huge and very toppy but very balanced tone all round. So what I'm saying is I like more tpl rather than less. You'll just have to experiment for yourself though. Get some different wire and save the F/Var for strats IMO.

[copperheadroads]

Formvar in the neck is way too chewy
Unless your going for something in a low wind maybe 7k or lower

[David Schwab]

I think Formvar is ok if it's single build. Heavy build will give you that "chewy" round, wet tone front he neck. I use heavy build SPN sometimes for neck pickups, or 41 gauge wire. Sounds kind of like a Jazzmaster.

[Danelectron]

Humbuckers shouldn't be scattered at all. PAFs were very neatly machine wound. But changing the turns per layer will give you different tones

David, I guess my understanding of scatter my be off. I wound these with varying turns per layer and was under the impression that anything other than 100% was considered scatter. The layers were very uniformly flat, but varied TPL from 40 or so to over 125. I just varied the speed of the winder as I watched the counter. The traverse speed is not variable. Well it kind of can be. There are three speed settings for it, but I use the slowest speed so I don't have to run the winder wide open. So would scatter be more of a crisscross lay?

Ward and copperheadroads, Thanks for the advice! I am going to try these anyway for perspective. I have some PE and SPN also, but am just trying the different insulations and trying to wind consistantly. The traverse gizmo works very good and has showed me that there can be vast variables just in the laydown. I have some different guages also that I will be trying some things with. I have wound some pickups that have good sound and are actually very playable but realize that this was more or less happenstance given the scatter probably resembles a bale of hay on a microscopic level.

Thanks for all the input. Dan

[David Schwab]

Dan, there are different degrees of scatter. Humbuckers are generally machine wound with a constant turn per layer count. But doing it semi random doesn't hurt anything.

I hand wind and as even as I try and make them, I'm sure they aren't. I was just pointing out that they aren't normally scattered.

[Danelectron]

David, I understand. I did try winding two with TPL about 100 or so steady. The traverse layed it nice and flat. I slightly overwound the bridge unit and they both sound pretty good. I used SPN and ordered some PE. I have a long way to go, but learn a bit more everyday. I was winding to some pretty vast extremes, but it seems like the more I wind, the less I vary the perameters. The traverse is a big help with consistancy. Even if I vary the scatter, I can monitor the variance. Thanks for the response. Dan

[Marco78]

Hi boys, I have a question: if I use scatterwind wind, how do I decide the number of TPL? I can't decide the width of the bobbins and so if I use 42 wire and 6000 turn, TPL is fixed, I can't decide it.

Thanks

[big_teee]

Hi boys, I have a question: if I use scatterwind wind, how do I decide the number of TPL? I can't decide the width of the bobbins and so if I use 42 wire and 6000 turn, TPL is fixed, I can't decide it.

Thanks

Marco Not sure what Your question is?
When you say can't decide the width of the bobbins, Can you be more specific?
Do you mean Single coils, or Humbuckers?
Thanks,
Terry

[Danelectron]

TPL is fixed, I can't decide it.

Is this due to the nature of your winder? You have winding RPMs and traverse time, whether it's mechanical or just by hand. If you vary either you will change the turns per layer. As far as deciding TPL, you can calculate the maximum TPL by dividing the inside width of the bobbin by the diameter of the wire. The wire gauge will determine max turns per layer for a given bobbin. Scatterwinding will be any value less than max. and as I understand, varying the traverse so the turns cross over eachother on any given layer. The fewer TPL, the more scatter you can impart on a layer. The scatter will give different characteristics. If you are asking how to determine that, it is personal preference and that takes alot of experimentation to figure out what works. There are some specs out there on proven designs, but even then you are at the mercy of your own skill at trying to match those specs. There is also wire tension that determines how much wire you will get on the bobbin. That will determine total DC resistance of the finished coil for a given gauge. There are other variables, but I may have already overshot the answer. Hope this helps.

[Marco78]

Marco Not sure what Your question is?
When you say can't decide the width of the bobbins, Can you be more specific?
Do you mean Single coils, or Humbuckers?
Thanks,
Terry

thanks for the fast reply terry!

English isn't my first language and so for me is difficult.

So I have read on this 3d http://music-electronics-forum.com/t26248/ that strat76 have wind a pickups with TPL of about 160 while Fender 69 have 200/220 TBP. How does he change this value without change DC resistance and wire used?

[Marco78]

Is this due to the nature of your winder? You have winding RPMs and traverse time, whether it's mechanical or just by hand. If you vary either you will change the turns per layer. As far as deciding TPL, you can calculate the maximum TPL by dividing the inside width of the bobbin by the diameter of the wire. The wire gauge will determine max turns per layer for a given bobbin. Scatterwinding will be any value less than max. and as I understand, varying the traverse so the turns cross over eachother on any given layer. The fewer TPL, the more scatter you can impart on a layer. The scatter will give different characteristics. If you are asking how to determine that, it is personal preference and that takes alot of experimentation to figure out what works. There are some specs out there on proven designs, but even then you are at the mercy of your own skill at trying to match those specs. There is also wire tension that determines how much wire you will get on the bobbin. That will determine total DC resistance of the finished coil for a given gauge. There are other variables, but I may have already overshot the answer. Hope this helps.

Is "trasverse time" the time that I take to move my hand for one side to another? And so If I move my hand slowly, have a TPL more high? Is it right?

Thanks

[big_teee]

thanks for the fast reply terry!

English isn't my first language and so for me is difficult.

So I have read on this 3d http://music-electronics-forum.com/t26248/ that strat76 have wind a pickups with TPL of about 160 while Fender 69 have 200/220 TBP. How does he change this value without change DC resistance and wire used?

The TPL is Turns per Layer.
If you have 200 TPL, then you would have Less Layers for the Same DCR, compared to 160 TPL
Coil Estimator
If you will experiment with the Coil Estimator above, you can see the Difference in Changing the TPL.
Feel free to ask Questions, and I will try to help get past the Lanquage Barrier.
Good Luck,
Terry