HB design: from jazz to metal

[Corcia]

i'm about to start with my first humbucker, i was wandering how to setup the proper design; which is the difference (in terms of material, windings, etc...) between a pickup designed for jazz (i.e. benedetto style) and a pure PAF, or between a PAF and a Humbucker designe for Metal?
i've tried to take a look at the specs of different types of HB but i've not been able identify a a sort of "thumb rule"; i.e. i've seen jazz HB with a very wide range of dc resistance (from 8-9k to 15k), both made with alnico 2 and 5, ok ,the PAF Parameters are well known, but the rest it's a mystery to me.

[LtKojak]

You should post in the "Beginner's Corner".

There's no "Rule of Thumb". P'up design is highly complex, with many of the variables not quantifiable and/or measurable for lack of processes/instruments.

You should do as all other winders did: buy some stuff, wind and listen. It's very expensive as a hobby, not profitable as a business, specially in Italy. Most winders, even the known ones, have a day job.

HTH,

[big_teee]

You should post in the "Beginner's Corner".

There's no "Rule of Thumb". P'up design is highly complex, with many of the variables not quantifiable and/or measurable for lack of processes/instruments.

You should do as all other winders did: buy some stuff, wind and listen. It's very expensive as a hobby, not profitable as a business, specially in Italy. Most winders, even the known ones, have a day job.

HTH,

Amen to that!
I Save and Save to make a Mojo Order, then try to sell enough to make another one.
On the Pickups, do like the rest of us and listen to all the Name brand Pickup Sound clips, then start winding.
Like Pepe Says.
Wind and test, wind and test, then you wind some more.
You will come up with what you like.
Good Luck,
B_T

[copperheadroads]

Good advise from both..................

[Corcia]

ok, I understand your points and I also agree; most probably I haven't been able to explain, what I am looking for is not the "cookbook" for pickups, I'm well aware that it is trial and error but I just would like to know which would be a starting point fot a certain type o HB. If I'm seeking a vintage sound from a single coil of course my first try would not be to wind AWG43 at 12.000 coils with ceramic rod magnets, this kind low level information is what I was looking for.
consider I'm not even thinking of earning a living from pickup winding, i've a day job and this is just the way i found to waste the money earned during the day; wasting money on pickups it'ok but fixing a starting point to try to reduce number of trials would be definetly better.
please do not misunderstand me, I sincerely do not mean to be polemical when I say that "just wind and test" it's not the kind of knowledge sharing I would expect from a community of pickup winders, of course no one is able to grant a result, and any kind of result is too subjective to be granted, but something like "for Jazz HB I do like this" is for sure much more tha what I was asking for.
I apologize once again if this message could result unpolite or argumental, it is definetly not my intention.

[LtKojak]

"just wind and test" it's not the kind of knowledge sharing I would expect from a community of pickup winders

Sorry we don't "meet your expectations". What did you expect, an exact formula that to many of us took several years of trial and error to get?

That's the best advice you're going to get, as that's really the best advice there is, period. If you don't like it, tough. Look for another hobby!

Want a starting point? 5,000 turns of #42 AWG PE wire in each bobbin of a humbucker, silver nickel baseplate, you'll get very nice results with any kind of magnet you can get you hands of. I particulary like the A4 in the neck and A8 or UOA5 in the bridge.

Underwind the neck from 5% to 10% and overwind the bridge 10% to 15%. Use 1018 slugs and 1022 screws and try first with no cover, even though I like'em better covered.

Did we meet your "expectations" yet?

Kids these days... pfft! Can't stand'em, can't kill'em...

[Corcia]

Sorry we don't "meet your expectations". What did you expect, an exact formula that to many of us took several years of trial and error to get?

no, if you could just read my above post you'll see i've underlined that i'm not looking for an exact formula.

If you don't like it, tough. Look for another hobby!

I'm sure you meant to be ironical but sincerely it sounded unpolite and argumentative.

Want a starting point? 5,000 turns of #42 AWG PE wire in each bobbin of a humbucker, silver nickel baseplate, you'll get very nice results with any kind of magnet you can get you hands of. I particulary like the A4 in the neck and A8 or UOA5 in the bridge.

Underwind the neck from 5% to 10% and overwind the bridge 10% to 15%. Use 1018 slugs and 1022 screws and try first with no cover, even though I like'em better covered.

Yessssss! exactly what i was looking for!!!!!

Did we meet your "expectations" yet?

Kids these days... pfft! Can't stand'em, can't kill'em...

it might sound strange....but you still seem to be unpolite and argumentative...

[David Schwab]

If I'm seeking a vintage sound from a single coil of course my first try would not be to wind AWG43 at 12.000 coils with ceramic rod magnets, this kind low level information is what I was looking for.

There are no ceramic rod magnets. Vintage single coils would due using alnico rod magnets, and wound with 42 AWG wire.

For some rough starting points, try this; For a PAF style humbucker, it's generally around 5,000 turns of 42 for each coil. You can use an alnico 5 magnet for a brighter tone, or something like an alnico 2 for a more mellow tone. For a hotter bridge pickup, use 43 or 44 wire and wind between 6,000 to 7,000 turns per coil.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

To the defense of the replying posters, you first message did have a certain vibe of "tell me everything I need to know in a couple paragraphs, please". Kojak gave the best description that I think you'll get in a single post. I'd suggest going through back posts, taking notes, looking up terms you don't know/understand, and bookmarking your favorites. I've skimmed back a couple years on the board - lots of hours, but as good as any book out there... whether that says good things about this board or bad things about the state of publishing, I don't know. Heck, even the spelling and grammar is generally better on this board. Why oh why can't music industry writers proofread? I digress.

It also helps to know how existing pickups that you like are made. What Kojak described is basically a generic PAF copy. Use a thinner wire, add way more winds and a ceramic magnet, and you've got a generic "hot" humbucker. Dimarzio leans toward more conductive bassplates like brass, except on the 7-strings where they ditch it and use an epoxy-resin, Bareknuckle "scatterwinds" basically as a rule on all pickups, etc. etc. etc....

Ultimately you'll do it yourself to develop your own opinions. There are arguments on a regular basis on this board whether two wire insulations actually sound different when the thickness is the same, and that is just one example. You won't get hard and fast rules or recipes, and that is a big part of why. Everyone prioritizes different elements in the pickup differently.

[fieldwrangler]

Lemme add my couple cents regarding the "jazz humbucker" thing...

Having taught jazz guitar at a college in Chicago for the past 20 years I've heard (and played with) a lotta jazz guys, and the neck pickups that players have just plain LOVED have run the gamut from a DiMarzio Super Distortion (for its intrinsically thick sound) to a pickup with BROKEN WINDINGS (due to a seemingly "flatter" response with the tone control rolled back somewhat despite the nearly nonexistent output and very existent hum.)

My most critical customer (a really terrific player, by the way) still loves a pickup I made for him in the early 90's with about 4500 turns of 42 ga. PE on each coil and two rows of slugs.

Personally I've decided that conventional humbuckers just ain't for me and I've been barking up some other trees, including those of the sidewinder variety.

So, go figure. Even if you find something you really love you might find that other players have very different ideas. And if you find something THEY really love, it might not be for you.

Bob Palmieri

[Corcia]

Thanks Funky! I didn't mean to have that "vibe" but I understand that someone might have that impression, if so I apologize once again! sometimes, when writing short posts, it's easy to give the wrong impression or vibe.
going back to the topic, you (all) are answering exactly to my question; as far as i'm very very very ignorant about HB I really needed to be put on the right track: just a couple of hints in order to start properly.
Now I now standards for a PAF and I have an idea of which direction i should move for hotter HB, that's all I was asking for.

[Corcia]

maybe i'll go out of topic...
i've read that often the two bobins of an HB are wound at slightly different number of turns, why?

[big_teee]

I recommend using the Search Button.
This Forum is Stacked full of Detailed Info, but you have to look for it.
Specifications - Pickupedia
STEWMAC.COM : Instructions for Humbucker Kit
Seymour Duncan
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t24304/
Welcome!
You will find lots of help here, just don't expect anyone to give out lots of detail Pickup Recipes.
Good Luck,
Terry

[Kindly Killer]

I was thinking along similar lines when I read the query for info on a jazz humbucker. A lot of people have very different ideas about jazz guitar sound. I think the music itself colors your perception of the sound - e.g. if you don't speak the language everything will sound "dark" and "heavy" to you - I've heard "sad" and "severe"; if you lean toward the funky/jam-y type stuff with more angular changes you will hear a harder, rockier edge to the same sound...

Also note that between an L5 with a bone stock PAF and an ES175 with a bone stock PAF you have covered the favorite guitar - at least at one time - of almost every luminary after Charlie Christian

And then there's the rest of the instrument, which is very different from a strat with a light gauge set of XL's. IMO the jazz guitar sound is exactly what you would expect from an archtop box with PAF's into a bright blackface amp.

Corcia, As far as the hospitality of this board goes, I hear what you are saying and I have experienced that myself. I kinda cringed when I saw your post b/c I knew exactly what was going to follow. So first off, here's some more useful info for you:

Mag strength is a huge factor - it's what I've been fiddling with most. I made Elepro's gaussmeter kit and I have been tinkering with slightly demagnetizing A5 bars; in Dave Hunter's Pickup Handbook, he interviews lots of big name pickup makers who say that magnet material is not important compared to magnet strength. Of course many of of those people are wind-and-listen - not technical types. Turns per layer is another biggie. Combine those factors with the info LtKojak gave and you will be busy for a long time

I am 40 years old and my best guess is that I'm still under the median age of regulars around here. We oldies have a hard time grokking the new [to us] ethos of open, free, information that exists elsewhere on the web. I've had to just kinda watch lots of threads roll by and slowly figure out what I'm likely to get help with, what will get ignored, and what will quickly degenerate into cantankerous fit of irrelevant [to my query for help] theory. It can be more like a breakroom full of engineers on lunch and less like a DIY forum. I think a lot of the experts here are engineers IRL and their interest is different from we people who want to tinker more with an alchemist's level of interest. Maybe when we tinkerers just try different things and see what happens, it's insulting to people who earned specialized skills over years of hard study?

Also there is some information out there but it is almost perfectly unorganized by contemporary standards. E.g.
Specifications - Pickupedia (which I believe was done by this board but you will never find a link to it - not even in specific mentions of it LOL)
Pickups specifications, Fender , Gibson, etc..

Also some information just isn't shared the way it is in other communities. E.g. lots of folks have unwound pickups to see how they tick and learned critical things like turns per layer, but you will never see that info gathered and published. Everything is just different on this forum; you see the apparatus for posting and reading and it looks similar to other places, but that's where the similarity ends. My personal approach to this place is to share what precious little knowledge I have and be thankful for anything I get. The experts here are true experts, so if you chance to get help on something, it will be very good, very valuable information. You will get better over time at soliciting actual help.

[big_teee]

I was thinking along similar lines when I read the query for info on a jazz humbucker. A lot of people have very different ideas about jazz guitar sound. I think the music itself colors your perception of the sound - e.g. if you don't speak the language everything will sound "dark" and "heavy" to you - I've heard "sad" and "severe"; if you lean toward the funky/jam-y type stuff with more angular changes you will hear a harder, rockier edge to the same sound...

Also note that between an L5 with a bone stock PAF and an ES175 with a bone stock PAF you have covered the favorite guitar - at least at one time - of almost every luminary after Charlie Christian

And then there's the rest of the instrument, which is very different from a strat with a light gauge set of XL's. IMO the jazz guitar sound is exactly what you would expect from an archtop box with PAF's into a bright blackface amp.

Corcia, As far as the hospitality of this board goes, I hear what you are saying and I have experienced that myself. I kinda cringed when I saw your post b/c I knew exactly what was going to follow. So first off, here's some more useful info for you:

Mag strength is a huge factor - it's what I've been fiddling with most. I made Elepro's gaussmeter kit and I have been tinkering with slightly demagnetizing A5 bars; in Dave Hunter's Pickup Handbook, he interviews lots of big name pickup makers who say that magnet material is not important compared to magnet strength. Of course many of of those people are wind-and-listen - not technical types. Turns per layer is another biggie. Combine those factors with the info LtKojak gave and you will be busy for a long time

I am 40 years old and my best guess is that I'm still under the median age of regulars around here. We oldies have a hard time grokking the new [to us] ethos of open, free, information that exists elsewhere on the web. I've had to just kinda watch lots of threads roll by and slowly figure out what I'm likely to get help with, what will get ignored, and what will quickly degenerate into cantankerous fit of irrelevant [to my query for help] theory. It can be more like a breakroom full of engineers on lunch and less like a DIY forum. I think a lot of the experts here are engineers IRL and their interest is different from we people who want to tinker more with an alchemist's level of interest. Maybe when we tinkerers just try different things and see what happens, it's insulting to people who earned specialized skills over years of hard study?

Also there is some information out there but it is almost perfectly unorganized by contemporary standards. E.g.
Specifications - Pickupedia (which I believe was done by this board but you will never find a link to it - not even in specific mentions of it LOL)
Pickups specifications, Fender , Gibson, etc..

Also some information just isn't shared the way it is in other communities. E.g. lots of folks have unwound pickups to see how they tick and learned critical things like turns per layer, but you will never see that info gathered and published. Everything is just different on this forum; you see the apparatus for posting and reading and it looks similar to other places, but that's where the similarity ends. My personal approach to this place is to share what precious little knowledge I have and be thankful for anything I get. The experts here are true experts, so if you chance to get help on something, it will be very good, very valuable information. You will get better over time at soliciting actual help.

What you speak of is why the Beginners Corner was Developed.
It's a shame more Beginners and Hobbyist Won't use it.
This is the place for a lot of the basic Pickup building questions.
Also another thing that happens often, is To Be Winders, want to get into theory before they learn the basics of winding.
The important thing is to jump in and wind something, you will answer a lot of your own questions.
I like low wound Neck Humbuckers between 7-7.4k, bridge Pickups in the 8.5-9.5k DCR.
Tone can be varied greatly by Magnet type, and strength.
Kepp Rockin!
B_T