Tension for hand winding

[JCrab]

Hi everyone, I have built a few humbuckers or should I say rewound. So far I have come up with 1 pair of nice sounding pickups. The rest of the pickups I built sound,,Muddy, Dark mabey flat sounding. I think I narrowed it down to tension. I am guiding the wire by hand and using my fingers to provide tension.. How can I tell if I have to much tension ?. I read thru the forums and I am pretty shure that is my problem..

[big_teee]

Hi J:
Too much hand tension, can be bobbin flaring, or wire breaking.
On hand winding, especially with neck Humbuckers, try to have low scatter, but the same amount of TPL each Pass.
Also with hand wound neck Humbuckers I like mine to be 7.3k or less with 42AWG Wire.
Try different magnets also.
Good Luck,
Terry

[JCrab]

I am using a a5 42awg and I just wound a neck with 5000 winds each bobbin, I wound very lightly and I am still getting the same effect but It was not as bad,, But it's still there. Mabey this time I went to light ?..

[big_teee]

5000 turns loosely would probably be 4k per bobbin.
You want to wind by turns, but it would still be good to know what the DCR in Ohms, for the pickup.
I'm a pretty tight hand winder and I don't have those issues your talking about.
When I first started I had trouble breaking wire all the time, but the pickups still sounded pretty good.
Are the coils pretty loose looking in the middle of the bobbin.
If so, Your winding too loose IMO.
T

[JCrab]

So mabey I was not winding tight enough in the first place... interesting. Thanks T... I will try one tomorrow with a lot of tension.

[big_teee]

So mabey I was not winding tight enough in the first place... interesting. Thanks T... I will try one tomorrow with a lot of tension.

I just wind with medium tension now.
Some of the guys say too much tension makes a pickup harsh.
On Fender type Single coils, I use some Scatter, on narrower humbucker coils I try to stay even and uniform.
Good Luck,
Terry

[madialex]

just remember tension with fine wire can mean very very small adjustments what one would consider tight to a pro may seem loose to a new winder. Too tight and it will get harsh. Like Big Tee said, keep your turns tight together, neck pickups dont like a lot of scatter. Play with the tension. I would recommend starting out almost loose enough to where the wire is almost falling off the bobbin and go in small increments up from there. The learning curve will be much shorter

[JCrab]

Thanks,, You guy's are awesome.

[madialex]

As far as neck hums go, I like a tight wind with even scatter. You'll have to play around with which side to be the hotter coil, YMMV Too loose makes them mushy IMHO.

[big_teee]

As far as neck hums go, I like a tight wind with even scatter. You'll have to play around with which side to be the hotter coil, YMMV Too loose makes them mushy IMHO.

Agree on the medium tight neck Wind.
On Neck buckers seems like both coils equal works best for me.
Bridge buckers I make the slug bobbin with the most turns.
IMO another common mistake with neck pickups is too many turns.
A underwound neck pickup will IMO out perform a overwound neck pickup.
Another thing that gets over looked IMO buckers and tone is the base plate, and the shimming.
I thought the wood spacers were all bunk, but IMO they are not. Don't trust me, try it yourself.
IMO You want a good quality Nickel silver base plate, and IMO the spacers need to be something hard and bright.
I like a hardWood, and you can sand it down easily, so it is a tight fit.
I have some scraps from hardwood flooring that works well.
Like I said, don't take my word for it, try it yourself!
If you don't like it, do something different, that is what hand winding is all about.
Good Luck,
T

[copperheadroads]

I thought the wood spacers were all bunk, but they are not.
and the spacers need to be something hard and bright.
No plastic or tape for spacers.
Wood works best, and you can sand it down easily, so it is a tight fit.
Gibson used maple because it was resonant and dense, and it was surplus from guitar builds.
shim the cable side as well.
I cut a smaller piece of wood for the cable side.
The wood shims makes the harmonics jump thru the roof.
Any good hardwood will work, if you have scraps.
I have some scraps from hardwood flooring that works well.
Good Luck,
T

The corksniffers will be busting out the Vicks for sure now

[David Schwab]

I thought the wood spacers were all bunk, but they are not.
You want a good quality Nickel silver base plate, and the spacers need to be something hard and bright.
No plastic or tape for spacers.
Wood works best, and you can sand it down easily, so it is a tight fit.
Gibson used maple because it was resonant and dense, and it was surplus from guitar builds.
shim the cable side as well.
I cut a smaller piece of wood for the cable side.
The wood shims makes the harmonics jump thru the roof.
Any good hardwood will work, if you have scraps.
I have some scraps from hardwood flooring that works well.
Good Luck,
T

You're joking, right?

Gibson used what they had as scrap. I had an early set of patent label pickups. They used mahogany spacers, not maple. Why? They had a lot of mahogany scrap. They didn't use maple until they started making Les Pauls with maple necks. They did not choose wood because it was hard and dense. They had a crap load of scraps that were too small for guitars, so it was free material to use for spacers. But they used to be mahogany, which is not hard and dense. I still have one if you want to see it.

If you want to do a test, pull the spacers out of the pickup and see if it makes a difference. it won't. The baseplate doesn't matter either, except brass can sound a little darker.

This clip of the humbucker I posted earlier has a forbon baseplate, and black plastic spacers with tape wrapped around them because they were too thin. Plastic and tape! I'm also using steel screws to hold the bobbin to the baseplate... no brass. Steel is magnetic right? Yep, so what. It won't hurt anything.

Do you hear any lack of harmonics or brightness? And this is a dual rail pickup with symmetrically wound coils. Forget that screw/stud nonsense. And its an over wound pickup. This is way hotter than a PAF.

http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/media/strat_bridge_pu.mp3

http://www.sgd-lutherie.com/images/S...ge%20dirty.mp3

I'm not trying to pick on you, but please, stop posting this stuff as fact.

[David Schwab]

Agree on the medium tight neck Wind.
On Neck buckers seems like both coils equal works best for me.
Bridge buckers I make the slug bobbin with the most turns.
IMO another common mistake with neck pickups is too many turns.
A underwound neck pickup will IMO out perform a overwound neck pickup.
Another thing that gets over looked on buckers and tone is the base plate, and the shimming.
I thought the wood spacers were all bunk, but they are not.
You want a good quality Nickel silver base plate, and the spacers need to be something hard and bright.
No plastic or tape for spacers.
Wood works best, and you can sand it down easily, so it is a tight fit.
Gibson used maple because it was resonant and dense, and it was surplus from guitar builds.
shim the cable side as well.
I cut a smaller piece of wood for the cable side.
The wood shims makes the harmonics jump thru the roof.
Any good hardwood will work, if you have scraps.
I have some scraps from hardwood flooring that works well.
Good Luck,
T

So, since YOU think you are an expert and you decide to make comments like:

So no one but David Schwab can have an Opinion?
Why does David always get to decide what is right or wrong?
I'm not aware that DAVID SCHWAB, Has a Degree in Pickup Winding!
We should be able to come here and discuss our ideas and opinions without having to be Jumped, and called Dum by DAVID SCHWAB.

You weren't discussing option. You were stating things as fact, were you not? Why don't you put your money where your mouth is. Lets see some proof about your wooden spacers. Lets see some proof that Gibson chose maple because of its tonal qualities. You say you can hear a difference, then please share it with the rest of the world. Let us all hear the difference. Just like I did with the 2 & 4 positions with the single coil size humbuckers. I provided some proof. Where's your proof?

And lets see your degree on pickup winding. I notice you only post these things in the beginners area.

Unless you have something to back up your claims, they are just claims. Thats how you know the difference between right and wrong. I called you out on it, and you seem to have a problem with that, huh? Well you now what? That's what moderators do. People are here to learn stuff, and if I see patently incorrect info being doled out, I'm going to comment on it. You are wrong, and you know it. You stated option as fact with nothing to back it up.

[rjb]

You are wrong, and you know it. You stated option (sic) as fact with nothing to back it up.

IMHO,
Hoowee. From now on, I'm going to start every post with IMHO. Just in case.

-rb

[David Schwab]

IMHO,
Hoowee. From now on, I'm going to start every post with IMHO. Just in case.

-rb

Or just don't state nonsense as facts. The two biggest ones were that a wooden shim, which is inert, will affect the tone of the pickup more so than a plastic shim. The shims serve no purpose other than to stop the bobbins from leaning over. Some bobbins have standoffs built in so no shim is needed. Plastic and wood have about the same qualities when it comes to the prevention of leaning. So would stone, glass, brass, aluminum, bone, and hard rubber. If plastic and wood sound different, then wooden bobbins should sound different. Forbon is made from cellulose, so that's pretty close to wood. So why not use forbon as spacers.

The other was that Gibson chose maple for the shims because it was dense and would improve the tone. This never happened. I pointed out why this is not true. So it was either imaginary, or a down right lie. These days maple is cheaper than mahogany. So maple it is. But pine would be just as good.

Because he chose to then have a hissy fit and contact the mod, who is me, about me, is really pretty damn funny. And that has nothing to do with the inaccuracies of what he is stating as fact. In his rebuttal he said it was opinion, but it clearly was not.

Unfortunately I had to correct him in two different threads and he took it personally. There's nothing personal about it, just sticking to the facts. I like him as well as anyone else here.

On some forums, like at TalkBass, they urge people to say "in my opinion" in their TOS agreement.