Being consistent?

[Hella1hella]

Hello everyone! its been a while since I have posted here.

I am still investigating all of the realms etc of building pickups, and before I start pouring money into another hobby, I have this question:

Without having a huge shop, and thousands of dollars of equipment, can I make good quality, CONSISTENT pickups? I want to be able to make a small hobby out of it, being able to make pickups for friends and family. Although it probably will never turn into some company or anything like that, I want to know that I can make CONSISTENT pickups, every time. So I can make a particular set, or a "model" I guess you could say, over and over again. It seems like hand winding and scatter winding at that is so various, it would hard to be consistent. Does it matter more of the number of winds, and the materials I use? Obviously if you're scatter winding, you will have slightly different coils, but should they sound basically the same if all other variables are the same?

This may seem like a noob question, so thats why I am asking in the beginner area!

Thanks in advance!

-Austin

[big_teee]

Hi Ausin:
Your in the right place.
And, you described my winding almost to a tea!
This doubles as a beginner and Hobby area, with a relaxed atmosphere.
I started winding about 4-1/2 years ago for myself and friends, on a jig mounted drill.
I still wind that way, so my point, is you can wind on a budget, or your can wind full tilt on a CNC machine.
I make consistent pickups just hand winding.
The Scatter term is kind of overused, and if you wind by hand you can wind machine like coils.
So by all means jump in and join our hobby.
You don't necessarily have to out grow the beginners corner.
This is one of my favorite spots on the forum.
Anyone else got anything you want to add?
T

[kayakerca]

Hello everyone! its been a while since I have posted here.

I am still investigating all of the realms etc of building pickups, and before I start pouring money into another hobby, I have this question:

Without having a huge shop, and thousands of dollars of equipment, can I make good quality, CONSISTENT pickups? I want to be able to make a small hobby out of it, being able to make pickups for friends and family. Although it probably will never turn into some company or anything like that, I want to know that I can make CONSISTENT pickups, every time. So I can make a particular set, or a "model" I guess you could say, over and over again. It seems like hand winding and scatter winding at that is so various, it would hard to be consistent. Does it matter more of the number of winds, and the materials I use? Obviously if you're scatter winding, you will have slightly different coils, but should they sound basically the same if all other variables are the same?

-Austin

I have only started winding about a year ago, so the members with many many years under their belts will probably correct me on this. But here goes. . . You can definitely make consistent pickups irregardless of the type of winder you use. Being a little (or more) on the anal side of things, I designed and built a CNC winder (which you can do for ~ $300 if you work at it a bit). I am guessing that when you say "consistent" you are thinking of things from a measurement perspective and possibly something that is measurable objectively? Like DCR (a measurement that you can do without spending thousands of dollars on electronic measuring equipment)? Subjective measurement, not so easy. On that basis, the largest variance I have experienced on my CNC winds for "identical" build pickups has been 1.79% in the DCR and that was only one time. All others have ranged from .2% - .8% based on the same turns. If you wind to a specific number of turns, then a variance in that range could easily be produced by fluctuations in wire diameter alone. If you more or less ignore turns and wind (while testing) to a desired DCR, then, in theory, you will have zero variance in DCR, but that would be a time consuming process relative to winding to a specific number of turns. Not that DCR is the only measuring stick by any means. I would say that if you use the same tension and same winding pattern, you can build "consistent" pickups. That said, in my limited time, I have never "scatter wound", I have always targeted a specific tpl for the wind I am doing.

On a Seymour Duncan factory tour video I recently saw on YouTube, they stated that they test DCR of "like" pickups before shipping to ensure a variance tolerance of less than 5%.

[R.Madgwick]

I started on a drill winding by coil size and DC readings, it can be quote tedious some days and there's definitely some room for error but that's not to say some measuring tools and a multimeter isn't efficient enough. I prefer having a counter, o hand tension and wind I have particular 'patterns' that I tend to follow but a lot of that is in your hands and how you lay down wire, simply put my pickups are consistent in terms of DC ratings and coil size but I doubt I would touch the consistency of a cnc winder, however a cnc winder will have slightly different characteristics than my winds which are different then the next guys. Even if we used the same wire, magnets, parts and turn counts its just the nature of the beast, however will the average human hear a difference? Possibly but it would be subtle and somewhat superficial, j find that my pickups make my customers happy and I enjoy them for myself, does anything else matter much? Im not in the business of production, and I do more one off custom work then selling a 'branded' pickup and honestly if the average person wasn't so fixated on a name and sales pitch there probably wouldn't be such a market of branded and named pickups. I've got a note book with about 45-50 winds I use as reference and yet my website I think has 3 humbuckers, 5-6 fender style and a p90 or two. I generally pick my customers brains and wind them something special unless they get turned off by questions and such.

[big_teee]

I started on a drill winding by coil size and DC readings, it can be quote tedious some days and there's definitely some room for error but that's not to say some measuring tools and a multimeter isn't efficient enough. I prefer having a counter, o hand tension and wind I have particular 'patterns' that I tend to follow but a lot of that is in your hands and how you lay down wire, simply put my pickups are consistent in terms of DC ratings and coil size but I doubt I would touch the consistency of a cnc winder, however a cnc winder will have slightly different characteristics than my winds which are different then the next guys. Even if we used the same wire, magnets, parts and turn counts its just the nature of the beast, however will the average human hear a difference? Possibly but it would be subtle and somewhat superficial, j find that my pickups make my customers happy and I enjoy them for myself, does anything else matter much? Im not in the business of production, and I do more one off custom work then selling a 'branded' pickup and honestly if the average person wasn't so fixated on a name and sales pitch there probably wouldn't be such a market of branded and named pickups. I've got a note book with about 45-50 winds I use as reference and yet my website I think has 3 humbuckers, 5-6 fender style and a p90 or two. I generally pick my customers brains and wind them something special unless they get turned off by questions and such.

I agree with all of that.
I do the one off custom, more often than not.
I find more variation in wire size, and metal parts than winding inconsistencies.
I used the drill and my little make shift methods so much it is just all second nature!
It's like shooting a deer with a Flintlock, or a 50 Cal. Sniper Rifle, the result will probably be the same!

[Hella1hella]

Thank you so much for everyones replies! I appreciate it. Does a CNC type winder even require a person to wind? I have been looking at Schatten type winders and things like that. I am not apposed to being able to make a small business out of this someday, I just want to be sure I can do what I want to do. How do people like Lollar do it? Do they hand wind using a schatten type thing? Obviously the old Fender pickups or PAF type pickups were not made by a CNC machine, but at the same time, would you consider those consistent? Also, does anyone has plans for a winder that is not a drill winder? I thought about getting a small DC motor and running it off of like 16v or something, and just rigging it up as a winder, having the motor turning a shaft, etc etc. But at the same time, should I just spend the $300 and buy a winder?

[SonnyW]

There are several questions here and I will try to answer a couple of them.

Does a CNC winder even require a person to wind? Yes, definitely. I do both types. The winder needs attention for setting up each different type of coil and even if you are making the same coils over and over, you need to make adjustments for small differences in the bobbins and wire, and you need to monitor and adjust tension. The CNC is good for doing things consistently, but it is just a dumb machine after all. It doesn't sense if for example the wire breaks, or if a bobbin is a little warped. You don't have to have a CNC to be consistent though. I wouldn't recommend starting out on a CNC machine without doing a lot of handwinding first.

How do people like Lollar do it? He is on here a lot so he might answer for himself. Many bigger winders have professional winding machines, including CNC available but most also wind by hand. There are other choices besides CNC, such as the machine winders that have automated traverses. Originally Lollar built his own auto traverse winder and pretty much wrote the book on doing that. A lot of big time winders wind by hand though for some styles and models. It depends on what they are making which method they choose. There is a subforum on Tools and Winding Gear that has a lot of info on making a winder. It doesn't have to be a drill machine.

About Fender's old winders. Most of them from the 50's were done on a simple winder made from a sewing machine motor with a mechanical counter attached. That is still a good way. The schatten winder is kind of like that but there are many other variations. To be consistent you need a good counter that won't skip. I ran into that last month with my handwinder that I built which has a mechanical counter. My counter which dated from the 1960's was beginning to fail. I didn't notice but it would hang up and skip counts sometimes (gears worn, it would get stuck on 6 and not go to 7). I only noticed when I had wound 6 pickups that were not coming in to specs on DCR, and seemed too full. After I repaired the counter, I was able to be more consistent again. Some people wind to specific DCR readings instead of turns count and that can be a very consistent way also, but a little more trouble to do.

Would you consider those old Fender pickups consistent? Probably not - but remember they had several people doing the winding, and I would expect that the pickups made by a given winder were more likely to be consistent than say the ones from different winders. There were also trends among those from one year to the next. It is entirely possible to make reasonably consistent hand wound pickups if you are a patient winder and take care to be consistent.

Hope this helps.

[rhgwynn]

Just go for it. Build a winder. Build a test bed that you can easily switch pickups in and out of.

Experiment as much as possible. Use your ears. And keep lots and lots and lots of notes.

-Rob

[jason lollar]

the trick to consistancy is learning what all the variables are and there are alot of those!!!
The schatten winder is far too slow and underpowered for anything but occasional use. I teach a few times a year at roberto venn and once someone tries my winder in comparison to the schatten they dont want to get back on the schatten. I use a variety of winders both purely hand guided and auto assist depending on what i am doing, one thing I never use is anything as complicated as a Tanac. I want to build in consistant inconsistancies as far as winding goes so any mechanical assist winder i use I either made or is basically a variation on any of the old 1930 or 40s machines like the leesona etc.

hey the old "my counter is beginning to fail variable!!!!!" i had that happen for the first time about ten years ago- took a while to figure it out. There are so many things like that to find out about its not funny

[mcgruff]

double post

[mcgruff]

I'm not sure if consistency is a good goal when you're starting out. You should probably consider the first pickups you make as ranging shots. Doesn't matter if you hit the target so long as you're mapping out the territory. Once you start to get a feel for the variables, you'll be better able to predict the kind of sound you'll get from a certain number of winds or certain type of magnet etc. Magnet wire is cheap so, if it's not quite right, you can just cut the wire off a bobbin and start again.

If you want to wind consistent results, you'll need to use exactly the same materials each time. Magnet strength can vary so you might want to find some way to check that. You don't need expensive equipment: just place a magnet on top of a steel biscuit tin and fill the tin up gradually with anything you like. The weight at the point where the magnet loses it's grip gives you a relative measure of magnet strength. Neodymium magnets can be used to charge or degauss, as required.

Winds also have to be consistent. Same number of turns - obviously - but also the same wire tension and winding pattern. I wouldn't get too bogged down worrying about that though. Just take your best guess. For me, winding tension is simple. If the wire keeps breaking, I'm holding it too tight so I slacken off just enough to avoid frequent breaks.

You'll probably get a lot of breaks on the first couple of coils but stick at it. Won't take long to get the feel of it.

Good pickups aren't that hard to make (provided you do your homework) and they can really transform a guitar. Top-end models will already have good pickups fitted but that's not the case for the vast majority of models. My own Epiphone dot came with horrible, muddy, stock pups but now it's a whole new guitar.