Summertime, Summertime. . . For lacquering bobbins be the better time

[kayakerca]

Again, I'm not saying that the old-school methods are wrong or bad. I'm just pointing out to the new guys that they don't have to restrict themselves to those rules. There are lots of good alternatives out there for making pickups. Some not yet discovered.

Couldn't agree more! I'm one of those new hobbyist winders and a bit of an anal one at that. I like the dipping for the thick and consistent coverage, it's fast and easy and dry time isn't an issue for me. No, it's not necessary that I get stoned while doing it (that's just a bonus)

I guess that's probably why some stay with hand guided. I personally prefer the CNC winder over the handguided or Lollar style sewing machine/fan based mechanical winder, but I wouldn't have wanted to get to the CNC winder without having gone through the other two first. I learned a lot from that progression which really helped the CNC unit design and build. But the easy of use and control aspects of the CNC unit are right up my alley and people seem to like the results.

Now if I could only move on from the nitro lacquer. . .

[big_teee]

Have fun with it, that is the main thing.
Rock On!

[Bruce Johnson]

Couldn't agree more! I'm one of those new hobbyist winders and a bit of an anal one at that. I like the dipping for the thick and consistent coverage, it's fast and easy and dry time isn't an issue for me. No, it's not necessary that I get stoned while doing it (that's just a bonus)

The Target EM9000 Water Based Polyurethane that I recommended above is fine for dipping, and it dries in about an hour. You can use the exact same process that you are using for the nitro lacquer, but you can do it indoors, all year around. If it was available back in Leo's day, he would have used it.

[kayakerca]

The Target EM9000 Water Based Polyurethane that I recommended above is fine for dipping, and it dries in about an hour. You can use the exact same process that you are using for the nitro lacquer, but you can do it indoors, all year around. If it was available back in Leo's day, he would have used it.

Thanks Bruce. It will be on my shopping list as soon as it's too cold to use the toxic lacquer outside.

[big_teee]

Thanks Bruce. It will be on my shopping list as soon as it's too cold to use the toxic lacquer outside.

That looks like a good way to go, but Save your money.
What I saw online is around $70 a gal.
Maybe a quart would be enough.

[copperheadroads]

Yeah, I know, I'm not trying to criticize or offend anyone.

I'm one of those radical anti-establishment new-style pro pickup builders. I only build pickups for the basses I build, which are all my own design. And so I build my pickups to any configuration that I can think up, using whatever processes and materials I want. I'm constantly experimenting with new stuff, for fun and to improve my products.

The thing is, most of the pro pickup winders on this forum are into the accurate vintage replicas of classic Fender and Gibson pickups. And that's fine. That's their market and their chosen path. But the new guys getting started and reading this forum can come away with the impression that the old-school methods and materials are the only way that you can build good pickups. That just isn't true, unless your definition of "good" is "exactly how it used to be done". In many cases, the old-school methods are more difficult and troublesome than the modern methods. As with the use of nitro lacquer in this thread.

Again, I'm not saying that the old-school methods are wrong or bad. I'm just pointing out to the new guys that they don't have to restrict themselves to those rules. There are lots of good alternatives out there for making pickups. Some not yet discovered.

All great info here ,I think the water based finishes is probably the way to go ,I think I will go pick up a can of minwax brand ,thanks Bruce .
The reason I'm using nitro is I have some left over from guitar builds ,I used sanding sealer ,Min-wax poly in the past with all good results ,but Nitro dries faster /harder in a pinch

I dunk my bobbins in nitro because ?
A-Leo did it .
B-I like what Lacquer fumes does to my brane ,see
c-It dries fast & theres about a half gallon sitting in a can on the shelf
D-none of the above

ANSEWER -C
It's one of several different finishes sitting in my shop ,I might as well use it & I'm not really interested in what was used in the past by Leo ,He could of used paste wax for all I care .
but we all know they were using nitro lacquer to finish guitars at the time ,so why wouldn't you use it ?.If they were using poly finish to finish guitars at the time ,they would of used poly to insulate/seal the bobbins with absolutely no difference in tone (Anyone to think differently ...come-on Really ?)

As insulating bobbins in general ,It just don't get any easier than dunking then in some sort of FINISH & hanging them to drip dry ,Exactly like the OP ( Jim's ) pic
I will add I wipe the tops & the lower end of the after dipping so I don't have to sand it later .
Good times when you drying bobbins outside (that means it summer up here ) Hell!!!! I've even had them drying on the clothesline ...

[jonson]

Hi Bruce, I dip in nitro and 2 part polyurethane and just wait, but being a cloner it doesn't matter to me. I am assuming that you still machine your bobbins and don't use forbon which is lacquered to a seal it from moisture and also helps glue the magnets in so dipping forbon in water based proucts or even water bourne products don't seem a good idea to me. Just my twopenny worth.

[David Schwab]

After seeing the bridge pickups off the '53 and '57 Tele's in my shop that failed from what most certainly seems like moisture (most likely 60 years of sweat) rusting the Alnicos and and ultimately the windings, I am a believer that some form of sealing needs to be in place.

They were sealed, and that didn't work very well, did it? Tape up the magnets with paper tape. Then if you want, dunk it in some kind of film finish. But what exactly is that thin film going to do for you anyway? Think about it.

Lacquer doesn't really cure in a day, it only dries. it takes weeks to cure. As it cures it does so by having the solvents in the thinner gas off. Then you are left with a much thinner coating that you started with. This is why you need to spray many coats on guitars. Since the lacquer will probably not get very hard inside the pickup, the windings will creep through it over time.

So you need a better insulation over the magnets. The windings won't creep through tape. I tape my pickups where the windings touch the cores, but I do not dip them in lacquer.

I've read people claim that the pickup will sound different with a spacer between the windings and the magnets, but I doubt anyone has tried it. I have. When I switched from winding directly on the cores to using bobbins, I got up to around 1/16" of separation and there was no change in tone.

leo probably wound directly on the magnets because it eliminated having to use bobbins. He liked the simplest/cheapest way to do things. He was a brilliant guy, but some of his ways can be improve upon.

[big_teee]

I spray the flatwork with krylon, mainly for cosmetics, and to seal the forbon.
Then I tape the magnets with wax floral tape.
I got the idea from Copper a few years back and it works great!
The tape is 1/2 inch, but can be stretched a bit to make it fit perfectly the height of the bobbin.
Never had any shorted magnets since I've been taping the coils.
And, there is no difference in Tone, that I can tell.
T

[David Schwab]

I'll just stick to my spray on Krylon.
It's a little fumey, but I spray outside or if Its cold I spray out the door of my shop.
It dries in minutes, and I tape the magnets anyway.

It does not dry in minutes. Try scraping it with your finger nail. Lacquer never really dries, which is why it burns in from coat to coat. But eventually all the solvents evaporate. It takes like a month to get hard enough to rub out. Rattle can lacquer doesn't get that hard. And they won't evaporate with wire wound on them.

Rattle can lacquer is formulated to be soft and dry slowly. I have painted necks with it, and it was never hard a year later. Your windings will creep right through that.

If you are going to use a spay can, try something like epoxy enamel, not lacquer. Did Fender even use nitro? They used Duco acrylic lacquer on a lot of their guitars. Nitro is great for rubbing out a nice shiny finish. Not so great inside a coil.

Bruce is right, you can stick to the old ways with some stupid romantic notion, and have your pickups fail just like Leo's do, or do something better. No one os looking at the pickup after its in the guitar and under the cover. Be more concerned with the tone and not so much copying someone else's idea. That's having your priorities in the wrong place.

Try two part epoxy. That will look like lacquer and actually gets hard as a rock.

Like I always say, do you dress like Leo too? Have a closet full of plaid golfing pants?

[big_teee]

It does not dry in minutes. Try scraping it with your finger nail. Lacquer never really dries, which is why it burns in from coat to coat. But eventually all the solvents evaporate. It takes like a month to get hard enough to rub out. Rattle can lacquer doesn't get that hard. And they won't evaporate with wire wound on them.

Rattle can lacquer is formulated to be soft and dry slowly. I have painted necks with it, and it was never hard a year later. Your windings will creep right through that.

If you are going to use a spay can, try something like epoxy enamel, not lacquer. Did Fender even use nitro? They used Duco acrylic lacquer on a lot of their guitars. Nitro is great for rubbing out a nice shiny finish. Not so great inside a coil.

Bruce is right, you can stick to the old ways with some stupid romantic notion, and have your pickups fail just like Leo's do, or do something better. No one os looking at the pickup after its in the guitar and under the cover. Be more concerned with the tone and not so much copying someone else's idea. That's having your priorities in the wrong place.

Try two part epoxy. That will look like lacquer and actually gets hard as a rock.

Like I always say, do you dress like Leo too? Have a closet full of plaid golfing pants?

Alternative Ideas are Welcome, but Please no Scorning or Bullying in this Forum Area.
Members do not have to constantly defend their Methods in this Forum Area.
If you want to build Retro, or modern Pickups, turned with a hand crank, or with a CNC Machine, all methods are fine here.
This area is for Relaxed and fun debates about building pickups.
Newbies, Hobbyists, and Pros are welcome here, please show Everyone Respect!
Thank You

[jonson]

Reason I said 2 part polyurethane is it does go hard even thinned down and over the years not as brittle as epoxy. Cheaper too.
I occasionaly dress like Leo, as last time I met him he wore a beige suit. Very dapper.

[kayakerca]

. . .you can stick to the old ways with some stupid romantic notion, and have your pickups fail just like Leo's do, or do something better. . .

Somebody quick call up this Seymour Duncan fellow and let him know that if he continues to do it like Leo did he's screwed too!

Video link to. . . ==> No Seymour no, before it's too late! No, say it ain't so at 7:01 minutes in.

Or are we trying to say there's more than one way to skin a cat. . .

[David Schwab]

If your going to challenge every dang post, at least read them First!
If you want to Argue in every post Please do it in the other area.

You posted that you spray "mainly for cosmetics" after my post. As far as "to seal the forbon"; seal it from what? Lacquer is not a good moisture barrier. You can read many posts by people who want nitro on their guitars, instead of poly, because it "breathes" and lets the moisture out of the wood. Of course both things are wrong in some extent, because it also lets moisture back into the wood.

Rather than getting bent out of shape challenging your posts, stop posting crap. This is the beginners area. You don't want to load up their heads with nonsense, and that's what's going on here. Hence my post that why not ware plaid pants because Leo did. It will do as much for the tone of your pickups as dipping them in lacquer.

Fender did things because that's how they did things. They changed from time to time because some of those methods didn't work well. Dipping the bobbins in lacquer did nothing but make them shiny. The magnets still corroded, flatwork still warped, and pickups still failed. Then way waste your time doing it?

You can continue to do that just because they did it, or stop and think about why you are doing it, and devise methods that actually work, rather than doing steps for no reason. It serves no purpose. Even cosmetically. Who cares. You aren't even going to see the bobbin after it's in the guitar. Wax potting it will do more to keep out moisture.

If Leo patted himself on the head three times before he wound a pickup, would you do that too?

[David Schwab]

Somebody quick call up this Seymour Duncan fellow and let him know that if he continues to do it like Leo did he's screwed too!

Video link to. . . ==> No Seymour no, before it's too late! No, say it ain't so at 7:01 minutes in.

Or are we trying to say there's more than one way to skin a cat. . .

Are you Duncan? Do things your own way.

Duncan also make things like this, and sells a lot of them:



My point is that a lot of people on here aren't thinking for themselves. They are blindly following the way Leo did things without even trying someone new. It's like everyone only knows how to play Stairway to Heaven, and no one is trying to write their own song. But they are still saying they are song writers.

If that's what you want to do, just copying someone else's original ideas and not have one of your own, well that's up to you. At least figure out what aspects are worth copying, and maybe make some improvements along the way. This whole copying thing is making music suck too. Everyone gets the same tone, and all you see are Fenders and Gibsons. People want to fit in and not stand out these days. I've played with guitarist that could only play songs they learned off a record. Or SRV licks. You asked them to play something original and they look at you with glazed over eyes. Thats' what the world is turning into.

Don't use a big company that makes a certain number of vintage models to show you are right. Let's see what you can do!