RW really necessary?

[buddha0709]

Is reverse winding the middle strap pup or any pup really necessary?
I made a strat set tonight and just swapped the leads on the middle pickup, and i'll charge it opposite...but it made me wonder why I was struggling to wind it opposite direction before to acheive the RWRP which was a lil more difficult with my winder as it only goes one direction..
Just wondering if anyone else just winds all in the same direction and just swaps the leads on a RW pickup..

[big_teee]

Two reasons I can think of why the pickups were reversed.
I think it probably started with the Jazz bass pickups one is RWRP from the other.
On Strats, Teles, J-bass, but doesn't necessarily apply to the P-bass, cause it's a Humbucker.
1. Fender grounded the Start lead in case the start got shorted to the magnet it would be near the beginning of the coil and the pickup would still work.
2. If you ground the finish lead and put hot to the start lead, if you touch the magnet it makes more noise than feeding the finish and grounding the start.
Hook a loose jack up with aligator clips and hook it to a strat pickup, and hook it up both ways and you can hear the difference.
That is also a good test to test for microphonics.
Fender also used to RWRP the P-Bass, it is a humbucker and I quit doing the Reverse winding.
I now wind both P coils the same, but you do have to make one coil N//up, and one S/up.
GL,
T
Anyone else got anything to add please jump in!

[buddha0709]

Two reasons I can think of why the pickups were reversed.
I think it probably started with the Jazz bass pickups one is RWRP from the other.
On Strats, Teles, J-bass, but doesn't necessarily apply to the P-bass, cause it's a Humbucker.
1. Fender grounded the Start lead in case the start got shorted to the magnet it would be near the beginning of the coil and the pickup would still work.
2. If you ground the finish lead and put hot to the start lead, if you touch the magnet it makes more noise than feeding the finish and grounding the start.
Hook a loose jack up with aligator clips and hook it to a strat pickup, and hook it up both ways and you can hear the difference.
That is also a good test to test for microphonics.
GL,
T
Anyone else got anything to add please jump in!

I did not know that.
Maybe I should go back to just reverse winding when I need to, lol
If it's just noisy when you touch the magnets I don't think it would matter, but if it makes a difference when you are not touching the magnets, then I think that would certainly be a good reason to do it that way.

[Rick Turner]

Two things:

RW will result in more perfect symmetry between pickups...not a bad idea if you really want to buck hum.

You do know why "hot from start" is noisy when touching the magnets, right?

Capacitive coupling of your body to the hot lead of the pickup(s) via the magnet(s)...

[buddha0709]

Two things:

RW will result in more perfect symmetry between pickups...not a bad idea if you really want to buck hum.

You do know why "hot from start" is noisy when touching the magnets, right?

Capacitive coupling of your body to the hot lead of the pickup(s) via the magnet(s)...

interesting. I've mostly done reverse winding, but last night I was winding a strat set and it got me thinking...
I myself, never really touch the mags, is there any other downside other than it's noisier when touching the mags?

[Rick Turner]

I think it's wise not to simply wind and make pickups for your own habits and usage, but rather anticipate and serve a wider clientele than one. Sure, please yourself, but you can probably do that and serve those beyond your walls as well.

Leo Fender did not have Jimi Hendrix in mind when he designed the Strat.

May we all have musicians who come into our lives and use our products beyond our dreams...

And, so, if there's a better way to make it, and there's little or no downside to doing it that way, then that's how to do it.

It's actually amazing that Leo didn't think of RWRP for the middle pickup on a Strat...

But, then, the original Tele wiring setup was really weird, too...

And he didn't get the original input jack switching very right on his amps, either. It was my former partner, Ron Wickersham, who told him about using a switching jack to kick in mix resistors...or not...on dual input channels.

[big_teee]

Just try the test with a middle strat pickup.
wire it different ways and see what you like best.
I tested, and came to my conclusion that they were quieter RW.
If you test and see no difference, then wire them all alike.
If you want to RW, just flip the pickup over and wind away.
To wind a strat pickup upside down, you have to make allowances for the magnets sticking out of the top.
That is not that hard though.
GL,
T

[Rick Turner]

I come back to "Why would you NOT do this the best way possible?"

Oh, I see...you want to emulate the bean counting days of the CBS Fender or Norlin Gibson eras. Yeah, that's worthy...

I just can't imagine why "hand pickup makers" would NOT want to make better pickups, sets, and wiring harnesses than the factories at their worst. You should aspire to do better than they did at their best... And you can. And some do.

[big_teee]

We don't argue here, we just give ideas.
Then it is a try them or don't no matter.
T

[Rick Turner]

Well, if you really want to keep reinventing the wheel and not learning from the past nor understanding the logic of well though-through designs, fine. I think it's great to try all the stuff that everyone here has done...if you have the time and refuse to learn from those who have already been down those paths and whose work has proven true.

But it seems pretty obvious to me that in this case, there is absolutely no "down-side" to RWRP middle Strat single coil either sonically (unless you're of the tin foil hat and the north pole is going to flip tomorrow fu..ing us all up persuasion) or theoretically (see previous parentheses), AND there is a theoretical "up-side"...symmetry...and to my own ears sonically...as you are consistently using either start or finish of all three coils as hot. Yes, see other thread about that...

There's a real place for skepticism...and there's a place where it's just sheer mindless obstinacy. The only reason for not winding a middle Strat single coil pickup RWRP is because one is too lazy to set up a coil winder to do it.

Or you just prefer being able to use 60 Hz as a tuning reference...

I do think we know the issues with single coil pickups these days, do we not?

[buddha0709]

I said I have without question wound middle strats and neck tele/p90's in reverse until the other night when I was making a strat set.
I was just curious as to how it would turn out.
It is just a little easier with my winder to mount the flatwork with the bottom down, I'm not too lazy to do it the other way as that is the way I've been doing it.

Just curiosity Rick, no need to assume I'm brainless and lazy.
This is the beginners/hobbyist section after all.

[big_teee]

I think What the OP meant was do you really need to reverse wind, or just switch the leads to reverse the polarity.
It will work either way, I used to do that, but now I do reverse.
Other than that, not that big of an issue.
Here in the B/H forum, we try to keep it negative free.
Like I said it is just better to throw ideas out there and go from there.
We leave all the arguing and hot debates to the main area.
Here, Beginners and Hobbyist can pretty much do or accept what they want to, and learn at their own pace.
And yes, I do delete negative posts.
T

[Martin Beer]

I can see why pickups with the hot end of the coil inside are noisier when touching the magnets, and I have observed this happening on the bridge pickup of my J-style bass. In my case it is more of an issue than usual as I use nylon tapewound strings and subsequently my hands are not grounded when playing. But I can recall reading one of the Hartley Peavey white papers where he was insistent that this way round was superior due to the outer turns of the coil acting as a shield. Is he way off the mark with this? I guess if they were using closed pickup covers then touching the magnets may not have been an issue, but anything non-traditional looking is harder to sell to players. It's on page 9 of this document; http://peavey.com/support/technotes/.../Chapter_5.pdf
I'm very much a hobbyist trying to pick up good information where I can, and I think Rick's posts above have convinced me to go true RW/RP with the next set I build.

[big_teee]

Some of that I agree with.
I don't agree that the coil is quieter if you apply the hot or output to the start, on a single coil.
I agree that the shielding does help on electrostatic noise.
I also don't buy the smooth magnet that they say are available now.
If you don't tape or dip, you will have some with shorted magnets.
I do use shielded wire on pickup lead-in wire when the player permits.
You only want to ground the shield on the control pot end.
I also put shielded wire on the jack to the control pot.
The simple test I've done many times is the loose pickup hooked to a loose jack.
You wave the pickup around in front of the amp plugged in.
Try it with ground to the start and then try it to the finish lead.
Try it not touching the pickup, and try it touching it.
This is also a great test for checking microphonic pickups.
In noisey environments, I haven't found a silver bullet with single coils.
Feel free to experiment, and try these things for yourself in your own test lab.
I read all this stuff of absolutes, then when I try these things, I don't always get their absolute results.
Personally I prefer humbuckers whenever possible.
YMMV,
T

[David Schwab]

It's actually amazing that Leo didn't think of RWRP for the middle pickup on a Strat...

But, then, the original Tele wiring setup was really weird, too...

He didn't need to because you couldn't use two pickups at the same time! That was another innovation devised by players by balancing the 3 position switch inbetween setting to get more than one pickup. It wasn't until the 80s that Fender started putting 5 way switching on Strats.

And the Tele wiring was to be able to play bass parts, since electric basses weren't common yet.

But he did do the RWRP thing on other instruments.

I'd like to know why he abled pickups to make the treble strings sound so thin?