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First (Giant) Steps

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  • First (Giant) Steps

    I have two sons who play electric guitar (awesomely!!), and I wanted to find a good science fair project for them. So we decided to build a humbucker and find out how it worked. We wound that pickup using a cordless drill and 38 awg wire and mounted it in a rough lapsteel we cobbled together. We installed a switch, so we could compare the results using just one coil and using the humbucker. And lo and behold, it worked! I could hardly believe that we got it to pickup anything, but that it actually bucked hum blew my mind!

    Since that time, my luthier-friend has been encouraging me to try winding some pickups for real. He got some ludicrous idea of having someone who could wind "house pickups" for his custom guitars. I laughed the first seven times he mentioned it, and then finally broke down and tried. I've never been all that handy, but the simplicity of these designs made me think I might be able to produce something - and their average quality would eventually convince him that he should continue to buy pickups from people who knew what they were doing. Besides, since I stopped coaching my kids' soccer teams and I had to break down my marine aquarium, my wife has started to think I have time to do yard work and home repair jobs!

    I mounted my first major engineering project and built myself a winder using an old sewing machine motor, a bunch of parts from McMaster-Carr and an ebay counter.

    I wound my first strat single coil pickup without really thinking about what I was doing - I was just thrilled to see wire going onto a coil. It obviously wasn't great.

    I pulled apart an old plastic-bobbin strat pickup and rewound that. I didn't realize that the D and G poles had been almost totally degaussed. It obviously sounded terrible.

    Then I bothered to do some research and actually tried to make a decent sounding pickup. We stuck it into my luthier-friend's strat - and he loved it!

    Since then I've produced a heap of pickups (well, it feels like it to me), running little experiments along the way, trying to infer how changes in construction will affect the pickup. I've also continued to do more research - that's how I found this forum. I can't work out whether this has been a good thing or a bad thing: at moments I feel like I'm unearthing vital insights, and at times I just feel like I'm simply discovering how ignorant I am.

    The biggest issue I'm running into is interpreting all the positive responses I'm getting. Everyone running in and out of my friend's shop is unreservedly complementary about how my pickups sound. Even when comments are unsolicited. I can only assume its because hand-wound pickups just sound "better", for some reason - because I'm not doing anything special.

    Here's the most recent example. One of the guitars my friend built for his personal use was made to be a close clone of a Dave Gilmour strat. I think it's all maple (I'm fuzzy on this detail), but his comment was that the construction tended to make it a relatively bright-sounding guitar. Anyway, it was convenient to test my pickups in this guitar - so out with the ones Gilmour uses, and in with mine. A totally different sound (obviously). But within minutes, my friend was shaking his head in disbelief and had proclaimed the neck pickup the "best" strat neck pickup he'd ever heard. Now, obviously everyone has their own preferences, and I'm sure there's nothing about my pickup that makes it inherently "better" than others. I'm not really on a big ego trip here. But this pickup obviously does things that satisfy his (and others') subjective tastes extremely well.

    So, now I'm on a mission to work out exactly what it is about these pickups that people are finding appealing. Because it's no earthly good to anybody if I can't reproduce it.

    I know the dimensions of the bobbin I'm winding on.
    I know the number of turns in my coil.
    I know the type of wire in my coil.
    I know the input impedance, or the DCR (but I don't know why people use different terms for this, nor which is the "correct" one).
    I've recently acquired an LCR meter, so I can determine the inductance (at 120Hz or 1kH frequencies).
    I know which pole magnets I've used, and I even know that they are all fully gaussed and which way they're oriented.
    I'm thinking of investing in the circuitgear mini oscilloscope interface thing to help me get a clear picture of the resonant frequency and frequency response from my pickups.

    The big variable in all of this is the actual winding technique, and I'm at a loss to identify how reproducible any of that is. I mean, each time I sit down to wind, I use the same approach - and given the number of these things I've done, I suspect I use a fairly stable winding speed and tension. But I can't possibly know. I'm not just randomly laying down wire, but each coil evolves differently. No two coils will ever end up the same shape, but none are wildly different. I have a romantic notion that this makes each one unique, with its own characteristics, and consequently each one is "special." It also makes it impossible to know whether I can reproduce any success. Of course, for all I know none of this matters - if I produce two pickups with the same number of turns, with the same amount of wire, with the same measured inductance and DCR, for all I know it will give me the same frequency response characteristics.

    Short of automating the process of feeding wire onto the coil (i.e. eliminating my hands!), is there anything I should do?

    Anyway, I hope I didn't annoy anyone with the long post. I hope I get away with a lengthy introduction if I promise to be more succinct next time.

    Chad

  • #2
    Welcome to the forum.
    If you want real repeatability you need a CNC type machine, that does every layer the same.
    If you like the hand winding, and the alure of each coil is close, but has it's own unique character?
    Then all you need is a good hand winder with a Counter.
    A lot of the issues I had when I started, was how the bobbins were mounted.
    Now I use a winder that has a top and bottom support, with screws and bars that clamp it all together.
    It greatly reduces flaring.
    With a well supported bobbin, good guide stops, and a reliable counter, the rest is just winding technique.
    Sounds like you're caught up with most of us.
    GL,
    T
    P.S. You will get read and responded to more I think, if you keep your Posts a bit shorter, and no essays!
    Last edited by big_teee; 06-02-2014, 05:01 PM.
    "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
    Terry

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by chad h View Post
      The big variable in all of this is the actual winding technique, and I'm at a loss to identify how reproducible any of that is. I mean, each time I sit down to wind, I use the same approach - and given the number of these things I've done, I suspect I use a fairly stable winding speed and tension. But I can't possibly know. I'm not just randomly laying down wire, but each coil evolves differently. No two coils will ever end up the same shape, but none are wildly different. I have a romantic notion that this makes each one unique, with its own characteristics, and consequently each one is "special." It also makes it impossible to know whether I can reproduce any success. Of course, for all I know none of this matters - if I produce two pickups with the same number of turns, with the same amount of wire, with the same measured inductance and DCR, for all I know it will give me the same frequency response characteristics.

      Short of automating the process of feeding wire onto the coil (i.e. eliminating my hands!), is there anything I should do?
      Chad,

      Welcome to our world.

      You are asking many of the questions we all first asked when we started this passion. It sounds like you are off to a great start. Simply by asking the questions you have indicate a keen sense of awareness and a drive for quality. Control what you can in the winding process...this will change as you get different and more advanced equipment, tools, and winding machines. At the end of the day it all comes down to the final sound and if people like it. Get lots of feedback from many different players.

      My suggestion would be to try to be as consistent as possible with the tools you have now while hand guiding/hand winding. Take lots of notes on the results...in time you will see a pattern. Try different things. Many top rated winders hand guide/hand wind. If you want to go further, at some point in the future, get an auto-traverse machine either CNC or mechanical.

      Good luck.

      Jim
      =============================================

      Keep Winding...Keep Playing!!!

      Jim

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks guys.

        I mount my bobbins to an aluminum plate using neo magnets. Magnets go either side of the plate, and hold to the pole pieces in the pickup. On a strat pickup it holds in place with no problem unless I lose concentration and force the motor too fast - then the whole bobbin flies off and I lose a magnet or two.
        This ends up being a good discipline device - helps to keep the speed constant. It's less convenient for a P-90 pickup that gets wound with no pole pieces in place. But more magnets on the other side of the bobbin did the trick.

        Maybe I've been lucky - but I haven't dealt with any buckling in my bobbins since my third or fourth effort.

        Chad

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by chad h View Post
          Thanks guys.

          I mount my bobbins to an aluminum plate using neo magnets. Magnets go either side of the plate, and hold to the pole pieces in the pickup. On a strat pickup it holds in place with no problem unless I lose concentration and force the motor too fast - then the whole bobbin flies off and I lose a magnet or two.
          This ends up being a good discipline device - helps to keep the speed constant. It's less convenient for a P-90 pickup that gets wound with no pole pieces in place. But more magnets on the other side of the bobbin did the trick.
          Consider using double-sided tape to mount your bobbins. I think a lot of people use carpet tape. It might be safer than the way you are currently doing it. I never want the bobbin to fly off the winding head/plate. I had custom winding heads made for my machines with safety and quick change as primary considerations.
          Last edited by Jim Darr; 06-02-2014, 11:29 PM.
          =============================================

          Keep Winding...Keep Playing!!!

          Jim

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jim Darr View Post
            Try using double-sided tape to mount your bobbins. I think a lot of people use carpet tape. It might be safer than the way you are currently doing it. I never want the bobbin to fly off the winding head/plate. I had custom winding heads made for my machines with safety and quick change as primary considerations.
            Thanks. Your suggestion makes a lot of sense. And who knows - when I'm more experienced, I can always put the danger element back into it. Like doing the trapeze stunts without a net.

            In retrospect, I also wish I'd used a different gearing ratio in the winder as well.

            Chad

            Comment


            • #7
              Great. Safety is always paramount in my book.

              Even some of the basic pickup winding machines today appear to use a positive bobbin mounting system now. Look at what is available for ideas. Never wind at unsafe winding speeds. I guess the safest bobbin mounting system might just be a screw and a nut into a threaded metal winding head/plate with some type of protective shield between you and the winding head. IMO, a slower wind is not only safer but makes a better pickup. Several of my machines have a tailstock that helps secure the bobbin in place. Also, for HB and P90s, I never wind with the slugs or screws in the bobbins. I think there was a thread here recently that discussed bobbin mounting options for Mojos' new winder.

              Not sure of the point you were making when you said you wished you used different gear ratios. Don't you have a variable speed control on the winder you made?
              =============================================

              Keep Winding...Keep Playing!!!

              Jim

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jim Darr View Post
                Not sure of the point you were making when you said you wished you used different gear ratios. Don't you have a variable speed control on the winder you made?
                Yes - I have the pedal that was attached to the old sewing machine motor. But if I used a different gearing ratio, then even if I accidentally step on the gas, the winding speed wouldn't get out of hand.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It really helps to have a tailstock with either a dead or live center pushing against the bobbin.

                  I have a ceramic magnet mounted to the headstock as a magnetic chuck and then a movable dead center on the tailstock of my CoWeCo winder. I can swap out the magnetic chuck for any other kind of holding mechanism if the need arises.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    There are many methods to mount bobbins.
                    I prefer some form of clamping, with pressure on top and the bottom of the bobbin.
                    I'll never go back to just carpet tape, it works, but is a constant upkeep and bother.
                    Also if you have a solid hookup, you can run the winder faster.
                    I can run my winder full speed with a rigid hookup. 1100-1200rpm)
                    With tape, or magnets, I always had to slow down.
                    T
                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by big_teee; 06-02-2014, 11:45 PM.
                    "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                    Terry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      So any other pickup questions for this thread, or has this turned into a winding machine thread?
                      If so I can move it to the "Tools, and Coil winding Gear" ?
                      "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                      Terry

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by big_teee View Post
                        So any other pickup questions for this thread, or has this turned into a winding machine thread?
                        If so I can move it to the "Tools, and Coil winding Gear" ?
                        As you wish. I really just wanted to say "Hello!"

                        Chad

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by chad h View Post
                          As you wish. I really just wanted to say "Hello!"

                          Chad
                          Glad you did, and welcome to the B/H Forum.
                          I guess you found the resource thread, and some of the stuff we have parked here?
                          http://music-electronics-forum.com/t30228/#post309190
                          So what are your favorite pickups, and what gauge wire do you use most?
                          I heard you mention the 38 AWG, I tried some of that on a bass pickup, it was ok, but hard to get much on a bobbin.
                          Mainly use the 42, & 43 in SPN, and HPN here.
                          T
                          "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                          Terry

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