what makes 57 classics sound different from 490r/490t's, & Burstbuckers

[elipsey]

to my ear, the 57 classics have a clearer high end while the 490r and 490t have a high mid-range emphasis, as described in their marketing. i can't find any difference in the specs to account for this. they seem to both use A2, machine wound symmetric coils, and about the same DCR.

does anyone know what it is about their manufacture that makes them sound different?

i ask because i'm thinking of re-winding my 490's.

cheers.

[big_teee]

That is a good question.
I looked up the specs, and I found conflicting info on the 57.
One says the 57 is A2, and another said it is an A5.
So if you have a way to compare all the parts and check the gauss, of the 2 pickups.
Chart it out, and see if you can find a difference.
Wire type
wire size, (mic it if possible)
Magnet length, and gauss
Compare the metal parts
Keeper, slugs and screws.
DCR
If you don't want to tear up the bobbins initially.
Wind new 49.2mm bobbins and use all of the 490 parts, and see what you get.
GL,
T
** I read that the 57 is a PAF Clone, with old style braided hookup wire.
The 490 is a more modern with a 4 wire cable.
So probably other things different in the pickup.

[elipsey]

thanks.

i don't have a magnetometer. they are both A2, according to gibson documentation: http://www.gibson.com/Files/_gear/da...ckup_Guide.pdf. this document also states that the 57 classic has balanced coils. for what it's worth, i found that another forum member dissected his 57 classic and says he measured "142" with a cheap magnetometer. no units were specified, and i wouldn't know how to infer magnet type from the measurement in any case. he also measured 7.91kohms dcr, and said the wire looked like plain enamel, and the base plate was nickle silver (not plated brass).

gibson also says the 490r/t have "enhanced highs". i would say it's more like enhanced high mids; it's kind of a nasal and pinched off sound. as an analogy, imagine the mid boost from a tubescreamer, but more subtle.

i measured 7.85k, and 8.1k dcr for my 490r, and 490t respectively, and i can't see any brass through the tooling marks or screw holes on the base plates. i'm pretty sure the 490's have balanced coils, although i haven't tested mine yet to be certain. i don't know what wire type is used for the 490r/t, but they seem to me to be very similar in design to the 57 in all other respects. it seems like there aren't many design differences left to explain the difference in sound: apparently the same hardware, dcr, magnet type, and symmetric coils.

it seems like i'm missing somthing -- how much could winding tension and layering, or insulation type really change the sound?

[Mike Sulzer]

As BT said, check the wire size. if the resistance is the same but the wire size different, then the number of turns is different, and that would lead to different resonant frequencies, and explain the difference in sound. (not that it might not be something else, so you have to check it all.)

That is a good question.
I looked up the specs, and I found conflicting info on the 57.
One says the 57 is A2, and another said it is an A5.
So if you have a way to compare all the parts and check the gauss, of the 2 pickups.
Chart it out, and see if you can find a difference.
Wire type
wire size, (mic it if possible)
Magnet length, and gauss
Compare the metal parts
Keeper, slugs and screws.
DCR
If you don't want to tear up the bobbins initially.
Wind new 49.2mm bobbins and use all of the 490 parts, and see what you get.
GL,
T
** I read that the 57 is a PAF Clone, with old style braided hookup wire.
The 490 is a more modern with a 4 wire cable.
So probably other things different in the pickup.

[David Schwab]

thanks.

i don't have a magnetometer. they are both A2, according to gibson documentation: http://www.gibson.com/Files/_gear/da...ckup_Guide.pdf. this document also states that the 57 classic has balanced coils. for what it's worth, i found that another forum member dissected his 57 classic and says he measured "142" with a cheap magnetometer. no units were specified, and i wouldn't know how to infer magnet type from the measurement in any case. he also measured 7.91kohms dcr, and said the wire looked like plain enamel, and the base plate was nickle silver (not plated brass).

gibson also says the 490r/t have "enhanced highs". i would say it's more like enhanced high mids; it's kind of a nasal and pinched off sound. as an analogy, imagine the mid boost from a tubescreamer, but more subtle.

i measured 7.85k, and 8.1k dcr for my 490r, and 490t respectively, and i can't see any brass through the tooling marks or screw holes on the base plates. i'm pretty sure the 490's have balanced coils, although i haven't tested mine yet to be certain. i don't know what wire type is used for the 490r/t, but they seem to me to be very similar in design to the 57 in all other respects. it seems like there aren't many design differences left to explain the difference in sound: apparently the same hardware, dcr, magnet type, and symmetric coils.

it seems like i'm missing somthing -- how much could winding tension and layering, or insulation type really change the sound?

Gibson says all three pickups use "special" Alnico II magnets (but no indication of size and strength), and the '57 Classic uses plain enamel wire.

The differences in the winding is probably what accounts for the difference in tone.

[LtKojak]

Gibson says all three pickups use "special" Alnico II magnets (but no indication of size and strength), and the '57 Classic uses plain enamel wire.

The differences in the winding is probably what accounts for the difference in tone.

In 2006 Gibson cheaped-down the '57 Classics by using poly wire... but they ordered the same color as PE.

Sneaky...

[David Schwab]

In 2006 Gibson cheaped-down the '57 Classics by using poly wire... but they ordered the same color as PE.

Sneaky...

I had heard about that some time ago. They are still saying it's PE, but it is Gibson, so I take everything they say with a grain of salt.

Like they just made a reissue of the Les Paul Recording guitar, which they are saying is an "exact" replica (with modern updates), and say it was Les' favorite guitar, only it has regular high impedance humbuckers and none of the cool controls.

So for them, as long as it looks the same, it's good enough.

[LtKojak]

as long as it looks the same, it's good enough.

You should add "and it costs less", it's good enough.

[big_teee]

I noticed that most of the reissues, seem to have different pickups.
They try to get an overall reissue look, then they probably call it Good enough.

[David Schwab]

You should add "and it costs less", it's good enough.

Nothing from Gibson cost less!

[copperheadroads]

The 490r/490t has a different winding pattern than the 57's

[LtKojak]

Nothing from Gibson cost less!

I thought it was clear I was talking about production costs...

[big_teee]

So it sounds like Some differences are?
Different baseplate, but similar.
Different wire, one uses PE, one uses SPN.
Wire Size, and resistace per foot, if not the same can make a difference in sound.
Slugs and screws maybe different steel used?
Not sure if same plastic Bobbin parts are used.
Magnets, we presume are similar, with similar gauss.
Pickup covers, can change sound depending on thickness, and metal used for construction.
57 uses braided pushback cable, the Other uses 4 wire cable.
That leaves Winding pattern, and winding tension, and turns count.
If they were mine and I really wanted answers, I would start moving things around and testing.
First the covers would come off, and retest them without the covers.
Get a plastic bag for each and mark the parts well.
That would be an interesting experiment.
T

[Silvio55]

Merged with Other Similar Thread

Hi! I'm wondering what are the differences beteween these two pickps, looking at the specs the only difference I found is matched coils for the '57s and unmatched for the BB's. I have a home made Les Paul with '57s and a friend has an R7 with BB, the only difference i noted was that the BB's were just slighty brighter, sadly I couldn't play his R7 for more time to hear more in detail, but they sounded pretty similar.

[LtKojak]

Hi! I'm wondering what are the differences beteween these two pickps, looking at the specs the only difference I found is matched coils for the '57s and unmatched for the BB's. I have a home made Les Paul with '57s and a friend has an R7 with BB, the only difference i noted was that the BB's were just slighty brighter, sadly I couldn't play his R7 for more time to hear more in detail, but they sounded pretty similar.

The main difference is the way the wire is wound in the coils, called "coil geometry" or "wind pattern". You can wind two p'ups with the same wire and same turns count with different coil geometry and sounding like complete opposites.

HTH,