"High Output" humbuckers

[chad h]

It seems like many metal players out there seek out what they believe to be "high output" humbuckers. Bare Knuckle, for example, produces a range of "contemporary" humbuckers which all seem to have extremely high DC resistance measures. The extreme case is their "War Pig" bridge humbucker that has DCR of 21.5 kOhms. Bare Knuckle describe this pickup as "Brutality with clarity! An extremely high output humbucker..."

So I have two questions...

1. If you used lots of turns of 44 awg wire on a standard sized bobbin, are you likely to generate ridiculously high DCR measurments?

2. If you achieved ridiculously high DCR measurements by using many turns of 44 awg wire, is the pickup really likely to be "high output"? Or does "high output" just become a way of referring to a high DCR measurement?

[big_teee]

Hi Chad:
Several things to consider on pickup dcr vs turns and output.
To get more output you need more turns of wire.
You can see this on the coil estimator.
http://www.salvarsan.org/pickups/Coil_Estimator07.html
4715 ohms of 42 will be in the neighborhood of 6200+ turns.
7500 ohms of 43 will put you up to around 7700 turns.
11500 ohms of 44 will put you up to around 9800 turns.
Each of the 3 figures above will be near full coils.
So you can get more turns of 44 wire than 42, or 43 wire.
The smaller the wire the more ohms per foot.
Take all 3 at 5000 turns.
42 @ 5000 turns = 3715 ohms
43 @ 5000 turns = 4700 ohms
44 @ 5000 turns = 5500 ohms
Hope that helps.
T
**Edit
Also don't rule out pickup makers using 45, or 46 Gauge wire for high output pickups.

[copperheadroads]

You probably can get 21k of 44 on a set of humbucker bobbins

[copperheadroads]

It seems like many metal players out there seek out what they believe to be "high output" humbuckers. Bare Knuckle, for example, produces a range of "contemporary" humbuckers which all seem to have extremely high DC resistance measures. The extreme case is their "War Pig" bridge humbucker that has DCR of 21.5 kOhms. Bare Knuckle describe this pickup as "Brutality with clarity! An extremely high output humbucker..."

So I have two questions...

1. If you used lots of turns of 44 awg wire on a standard sized bobbin, are you likely to generate ridiculously high DCR measurments?

2. If you achieved ridiculously high DCR measurements by using many turns of 44 awg wire, is the pickup really likely to be "high output"? Or does "high output" just become a way of referring to a high DCR measurement?

Remember ,"Clarity" when referring to high output pickups usually means with a heavy distorted amp not a clean amp . usually extremely high output buckers sound like a blanket over the amp when played clean

[buddha0709]

I get a request every week to make a Bare Knuckle ___ copy.
They certainly have created a niche, and people are paying a premium for it.

I make a 20k alnico 8 bucker that heavy players love.
The JB is 6800ish of 44awg, which puts you in the 16k range.
You can probably get 9000ish or so on a single bucker bobbin with 44, making it in the 22ish region.
But stuffing the bobbin with as much 44 as you can will result in a very mushy pickup with little to no highs.
IMO.

[tedmich]

You can probably get 9000ish or so on a single bucker bobbin with 44, making it in the 22ish region.
But stuffing the bobbin with as much 44 as you can will result in a very mushy pickup with little to no highs.
IMO.

so its "high output" only in the lows? mudbucker indeed...

[buddha0709]

so its "high output" only in the lows? mudbucker indeed...

It's not a 100% rule afaik, but normally the more you overwind the bobbin, the more high end you lose.
But, you can possibly get some of that high end back depending on your magnet choice.
Possibly.
I've not tried 18000 turns total of 44awg for a humbucker so I can't 100% say.

[tedmich]

my knowledge of typical BK Warpig buyers is that they managed to figure their battery expense for a couple of years of muddy EMG ownership, get sold on the scatterwound "technology" and the joy of not being silenced by dead batteries and pull the trigger. Making a passive PU that sounds like an EMG81 through a twinRec/5150 is the goal for some I guess.

[chad h]

I'm still interested in this "high output" characterization, though.

I understand that 6000 turns of 42 awg wire will give a higher DCR measurement and will produce higher voltage than 5000 turns of 42 awg wire.
I also understand that 5000 turns of 43 awg wire will give a higher DCR measurement and will produce lower voltage than 5000 turns of 42 awg wire.
Increasing turns increases voltage, but narrowing the wire gauge decreases voltage. This is all independent of the inductance generated from a chunkier coil, which is the thing that will roll off the high frequencies.

So, do we really think that output from one of these high-DCR humbuckers is high? Or does it get that label simply because it has high DCR?

[big_teee]

Two things effect pickup output.
Turns, and magnet strength.
If you forget about the DCR, and think turns.
More turns, more inductance, more output.
T

[big_teee]

You may want to look at this Dimarzio guide.
It shows output in mv, and shows DCR, and magnet type.
It might shed some lite on output.
http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...uick_guide.pdf
T

[David Schwab]

...a couple of years of muddy EMG ownership

The last thing I'd call EMGs is muddy. Since they are wired up (kind of) in parallel, and buffered, they are plenty bright.

Regarding high output humbuckers. I consider pickups like the Duncan JB to be dark sounding, but that's only when they are played through a clean amp. They sound totally different distorted. I guess the mids and lack of highs works to an advantage in that context.

[jack briggs]

The last thing I'd call EMGs is muddy. Since they are wired up (kind of) in parallel, and buffered, they are plenty bright.

Regarding high output humbuckers. I consider pickups like the Duncan JB to be dark sounding, but that's only when they are played through a clean amp. They sound totally different distorted. I guess the mids and lack of highs works to an advantage in that context.

David,

I agree that EMGs aren't muddy, but the JB is dark? Not in my experience, or SDs tone chart (5B/6M/8H). Remember that it was designed for Jeff Beck, who plays with his fingers - to give him a little more clarity due to loss of pick attack. ymmv

cheers,

[big_teee]

Seymour Duncan denies the Jeff Beck relationship.
SD calls it a Jazz Blues Pickup.
IME Most high output pickups get darker sounding if you put too much wire on them.
T

[David Schwab]

David,

I agree that EMGs aren't muddy, but the JB is dark? Not in my experience, or SDs tone chart (5B/6M/8H). Remember that it was designed for Jeff Beck, who plays with his fingers - to give him a little more clarity due to loss of pick attack. ymmv

cheers,

Play them clean and they sound like mud. I like my humbuckers bright and snappy. You can't make a 16.4k humbucker bright!

And Jeff did not play with his fingers until the 80s. I'm not sure how a darker pickup will give more clarity.

The JB was the pickup that Seymour put in the Telegib guitar that he gave Jeff.