Pinch Harmonics / Harmonics-- pickup building techniques

[jschweid]

As one new to the forum, I am learning a lot. Been doing this awhile with varied results, so hoping to use what I learn here. Building vintage to vintage hot PAF style pickups. Is there anything specific I can do when making the pickup so that it will accentuate frequencies achieved with pinch harmonics / tap harmonics? I know that scatterwinding and offsetting coils can help by by allowing more treble frequencies. But besides those things, has anyone built pickups that work well. Think Billy Gibbons or Van Halen type sounds. I know at one time SD had an "EVH" style pickup that supposedly provided for "evenly voiced harmonics"...whatever that meant.

Not looking for specific formulas, but techniques to experiment with. Currently working on a "vintage hot" bridge humbucker design with 42 PE wire, slug side, moderate to wide scatter (not narrow even TPL), offset about 1-2% more turns than screw side-- about 4.7K. Screw side moderate to wide scatter, wound to about 4.5K.

Thoughts? Of course, if this is already discussed in another thread, I apologize...still learning how to navigate here.

Jonathan

[copperheadroads]

I know that scatterwinding and offsetting coils can help by by allowing more treble frequencies.



Jonathan

Really ? ????????

[big_teee]

I've had some guitars and pickups with good pick harmonics.
These are strictly My Opinions.
Tight tension seems to aid harmonics.
Scatter winding on a narrow humbucker bobbin is not practical.
Experiment with which coil has most wire.
Seems that putting more wire on the screw bobbin helps.
Experiment with magnets and magnet strength.
I would start with no potting.
Heavy LP type guitars seem to have great Harmonics.
And IMO the most important thing for pick harmonics is the Amplifier.
T
Others Please Jump in!

[Audiotexan]

Welcome! Nice to have ya!

I know at one time SD had an "EVH" style pickup that supposedly provided for "evenly voiced harmonics"...whatever that meant.

That was just marketing in action. Everyone knows damn good and well that Seymour fully intends the inference. lol
They just couldn't come to a deal that made them both happy. If they could have, their marketing dept. wouldn't have had to do a mad scramble to find something 'suitable' to keep them from being sued.

Not looking for specific formulas, but techniques to experiment with. Currently working on a "vintage hot" bridge humbucker design with 42 PE wire, slug side, moderate to wide scatter (not narrow even TPL), offset about 1-2% more turns than screw side-- about 4.7K. Screw side moderate to wide scatter, wound to about 4.5K.

Thoughts? Of course, if this is already discussed in another thread, I apologize...still learning how to navigate here.

Jonathan

I'd be surprised to learn that scatter vs. straight or whatever affects things enough to have a noticeable impact. I lean more towards string tension, and the width of the frets, and then height from them as well. But I could be grasping at straws there.

You've definitely come to the right place though IMO! There's some serious talent here, and I learn a lot everyday that I'm here.
Will be interested in learning more as this progresses!

[jschweid]

Let me rephrase...lol...I've read that offset and scatter can enhance treble frequencies and / or improve clarity. Whether it does or not, I'm not sure.....

[jschweid]

I've had some guitars and pickups with good pick harmonics.
Tight tension seems to aid harmonics.
Scatter winding on a narrow humbucker bobbin is not practical.
Experiment with which coil has most wire.

I've experimented with tension--and broken many a wire. Interestingly, if I'm heavy handed on a particular day, I can lower the resistance tremendously. For example, was winding a pickup yesterday with a number of turns that (in my hands) typically gets around 4.5k. It was humid, and my hands were a bit sweaty, so the wire was pulling tighter. After the roughly 5800 winds, I noticed that the bobbin didn't seem as full as normal. Testing the resistance I was at 3.7. I'm assuming, since my Mojotone winder automatically counts down winds it wasn't a miscount of turns. I repeated it again, and similar results. After realizing what I was doing, I loosened the tension slightly and shazam, back to normal (for my hands). Seems counterintuitive, because I thought too much tension stretched the wire and the resistance would go up...but perhaps I'm wrong. Either way, loosening my ''heavy handedness" fixed the problem. Gaining enough muscle memory to produce consistent results has been my challenge all along, but I guess thats why hand winding is so challenging and fun.

I guess when I say "scatterwind" on humbucker, I'm just moving the traverse a little quicker and a little more random--not like scatterwinding a single coil. Just, not winding with a super even (or as even as my hand can guide) wind. But will definitely experiment now with this, if you think a more even tpl yields better harmonics. It's the experimentation that is the fun part of making them anyway!

[Mark Hammer]

I was going to say "gain, gain, gain", but my sense is that the guitar body and neck, and fingernails, have far more to do with being able to easily get harmonics than the pickups ever would. years ago I had the pleasure of seeing jazz giant Lenny Breau up close in a small club. He was playing what many would consider a s**tbox Baldwin, but some 60% of what he was playing was harmonics. I doubt there was anything special about his pickups.

[big_teee]

I've experimented with tension--and broken many a wire. Interestingly, if I'm heavy handed on a particular day, I can lower the resistance tremendously. For example, was winding a pickup yesterday with a number of turns that (in my hands) typically gets around 4.5k. It was humid, and my hands were a bit sweaty, so the wire was pulling tighter. After the roughly 5800 winds, I noticed that the bobbin didn't seem as full as normal. Testing the resistance I was at 3.7. I'm assuming, since my Mojotone winder automatically counts down winds it wasn't a miscount of turns. I repeated it again, and similar results. After realizing what I was doing, I loosened the tension slightly and shazam, back to normal (for my hands). Seems counterintuitive, because I thought too much tension stretched the wire and the resistance would go up...but perhaps I'm wrong. Either way, loosening my ''heavy handedness" fixed the problem. Gaining enough muscle memory to produce consistent results has been my challenge all along, but I guess thats why hand winding is so challenging and fun.

I guess when I say "scatterwind" on humbucker, I'm just moving the traverse a little quicker and a little more random--not like scatterwinding a single coil. Just, not winding with a super even (or as even as my hand can guide) wind. But will definitely experiment now with this, if you think a more even tpl yields better harmonics. It's the experimentation that is the fun part of making them anyway!

You and I should get similar results, since we are using the same winder.
My definition of more tension, would be more of a medium tension, not real tight, or not real loose.
Too much tension and you get flared bobbins, and broke wire, too little and you get loose wire, and microphonics.
On the Mojo winder, before I could get used to it and get it where I could control the tension I had to raise it up some.
I have mine C-clamped to a metal 30 inch high desk.
But, before clamping I have it shimmed up with boards over 2 inches.
My desk chair lowers or raises where I can get closer to the wire stops.
That makes the angle less on the wire breaking under the wire guide and stops.
I also like to occassionally chuck the wire guide in my drill and polish it with steel wool.
Now with the proper height and a slick wire guide I can better control the tension.
I may have to experiment some and see what I get.
Like Mark said a good tube amp with lots of gain that feeds back well is a good place to start.
IMO, Wax potting does dull the pinch harmonics some.
GL,
T

[copperheadroads]

I've experimented with tension--and broken many a wire. Interestingly, if I'm heavy handed on a particular day, I can lower the resistance tremendously. For example, was winding a pickup yesterday with a number of turns that (in my hands) typically gets around 4.5k. It was humid, and my hands were a bit sweaty, so the wire was pulling tighter. After the roughly 5800 winds, I noticed that the bobbin didn't seem as full as normal. Testing the resistance I was at 3.7. I'm assuming, since my Mojotone winder automatically counts down winds it wasn't a miscount of turns. I repeated it again, and similar results. After realizing what I was doing, I loosened the tension slightly and shazam, back to normal (for my hands). Seems counterintuitive, because I thought too much tension stretched the wire and the resistance would go up...but perhaps I'm wrong. Either way, loosening my ''heavy handedness" fixed the problem. Gaining enough muscle memory to produce consistent results has been my challenge all along, but I guess thats why hand winding is so challenging and fun.

I guess when I say "scatterwind" on humbucker, I'm just moving the traverse a little quicker and a little more random--not like scatterwinding a single coil. Just, not winding with a super even (or as even as my hand can guide) wind. But will definitely experiment now with this, if you think a more even tpl yields better harmonics. It's the experimentation that is the fun part of making them anyway!

Loose winding can result in higher DCR then a tighter medium tension wind .looser uneven wind = bigger coil & more wire
but from 3.7k to 4.5k seems a like big increase .is your wire laying down nice & neat when winding ? & if your limiters are the right distance wire can build quite loosely along the edge of the bobbin flats all this will contribute to the tone
Also bobbins with 53mm spacing will end up with quite a bit higher dcr than if you used 49mm or 50mm bobbins .

[jschweid]

Loose winding can result in higher DCR then a tighter medium tension wind .looser uneven wind = bigger coil & more wire
but from 3.7k to 4.5k seems a like big increase .is your wire laying down nice & neat when winding ? & if your limiters are the right distance wire can build quite loosely along the edge of the bobbin flats all this will contribute to the tone
Also bobbins with 53mm spacing will end up with quite a bit higher dcr than if you used 49mm or 50mm bobbins .

Seemed like a big difference to me as well, but I couldn't explain it any other way. Using 49mm bobbin. The limiters are set slightly inside the edge of the bobbin flats. The wire is laying down neatly, but I was traversing faster to create a little more space between the winds and a slightly wider scatter. Not sure if that's the best technique, but I was experimenting to see the effect.

[big_teee]

More scatter will make a larger diameter coil, and will result in higher DCR.
You can see all of this with the Estimator.
Coil Estimator
Another thing that can greatly change DCR, is if you change spools of wire.
Each spool of wire can have larger or smaller wire diameter.
Larger diameter wire will usually read lower DCR than a smaller diameter wire.
T

[David Schwab]

I know at one time SD had an "EVH" style pickup that supposedly provided for "evenly voiced harmonics"...whatever that meant.

What it meant was "EVH does not mean Eddie Van Halen." There was no Evenly Voiced Harmonics. It was a backronym. Just like JB doesn't mean Jeff Beck and Jazz Model wasn't named for John Milner, (Hint, all three were named after those people.)

Humbuckers are generally never scatter wound. I don't even scatter single coils. Hand winding is as random as you need.

Mismatching the coils reduces the high frequency cancelation that occurs in humbuckers, which is a product of the spacing between the two (out of phase) coils. This is why when you move them farther apart, i.e., on a Strat, you change the notch frequency and get that quack.

But any pickup can do pinch harmonics. That's more a technique. The bridge pickup reproduces harmonics better, and so would a brighter pickup. And distortion makes it easier to hear. But if you look at all the guitarist that do pinch harmonics, they are using what ever pickup is in their guitar.

Really ? ????????

Yes, really.

[David Schwab]

I was going to say "gain, gain, gain", but my sense is that the guitar body and neck, and fingernails, have far more to do with being able to easily get harmonics than the pickups ever would.

I keep my finger nails so short, they are out of the equation. Just the pick and the fleshy part of the thumb... but mostly the pick. You can't have too much pick showing

years ago I had the pleasure of seeing jazz giant Lenny Breau up close in a small club. He was playing what many would consider a s**tbox Baldwin, but some 60% of what he was playing was harmonics. I doubt there was anything special about his pickups.

He did some CRAZY harmonic stuff. Like cascading waterfalls of harmonics. That's usually done by fretting a note and then touching the string at a harmonic node with the picking hand, usually an octave higher, and striking the string.

[jschweid]

Humbuckers are generally never scatter wound. I don't even scatter single coils. Hand winding is as random as you need.

Mismatching the coils reduces the high frequency cancelation that occurs in humbuckers, which is a product of the spacing between the two (out of phase) coils. This is why when you move them farther apart, i.e., on a Strat, you change the notch frequency and get that quack.

But any pickup can do pinch harmonics. That's more a technique. The bridge pickup reproduces harmonics better, and so would a brighter pickup. And distortion makes it easier to hear. But if you look at all the guitarist that do pinch harmonics, they are using what ever pickup is in their guitar.

I suppose a better way to ask the question is what, if any, hand winding techniques would aid in making the humbucker "brighter"--ie more treble. I always thought that offsetting the coils allowed less cancellation of higher frequencies, which it seems you agree with, David. But short of that, I was trying to see if there was anything else I could do.

With regard to the scatter, out of curiosity BareKnuckle pickups say that their humbuckers are scatterwound--which confuses me, since you said that humbuckers aren't usually scatterwound. Why, out of curiosity?

I realize the EVH or "Evenly Voiced Harmonics" was all a marketing tool and really meant nothing. That said, it is a medium output (about 9.1k) PAF pickup wound with 42 gauge PE wire. I happen to really like the tone of that pickup. Short of kidnapping Seymour Duncan or MJ, I doubt we'll never know what the exact formula is that helps the pickup achieve that tone. But, for some reason, that particular pickup really taps into both mid and trebles...and harmonics really ring through. I'd love to emulate that.

[big_teee]

No problem, you can build your own, I think I have.
Read this thread.
Use A2 magnet and a bit more turns on the slug coil.
http://music-electronics-forum.com/t12102-2/