Two pickups, four coils, two series/single/parallel switches and life sucks.

[big_teee]

I redrew the bass layout, added a blend, and corrected the bobbins, I showed from the top in the other layout.
Now the pickups, switches, and pots are shown from the bottom.
Check out the layout, and see if you see anything wrong with it.
The design has the bridge pickup wired inside out, like a normal humbucker.
The neck humbucker pickup is wired RWRP outside in, this layout maintains proper polarity, when played with the bridge pickup.
This allows the SC Split mode to be RWRP.
See New Layout.
T

[SonnyW]

I left my analogue VOM back in the old country unfortunately.

As an aside, it is not necessary to use an analog ohmmeter (looking at ohms) for the phase test. With many digital meters you can measure the output millivolts directly. If your meter is capable of reading a few tens of DC millivolts then all you have to do is set it to the lowest DC millivolts scale and put your chunk of metal on the poles, let it settle down then watch the sign on the meter when you pull the metal away. Don't worry about the numbers, just the sign. You should get the opposite sign when you put the metal back. I have an old Simpson 260 on my bench that I used for years for this test, but to keep from swapping leads I often do the phase test instead using the multimeter built into my scope. The results are just as valid and I have tried this even with some of the cheap DVM's and they work too.

[big_teee]

As an aside, it is not necessary to use an analog ohmmeter (looking at ohms) for the phase test. With many digital meters you can measure the output millivolts directly. If your meter is capable of reading a few tens of DC millivolts then all you have to do is set it to the lowest DC millivolts scale and put your chunk of metal on the poles, let it settle down then watch the sign on the meter when you pull the metal away. Don't worry about the numbers, just the sign. You should get the opposite sign when you put the metal back. I have an old Simpson 260 on my bench that I used for years for this test, but to keep from swapping leads I often do the phase test instead using the multimeter built into my scope. The results are just as valid and I have tried this even with some of the cheap DVM's and they work too.

I tried this, not sure what I proved?
I took a matched set of Tele pickups.
The Bridge P/U is North up wound top going on right side.
The Neck pickup is South up wound bottom going on right side.
So a RWRP matched set.
With the DMM on DC Milliamps, black pickup lead to black lead on the meter.
Both pickup register a + signal on the DMM.
Though they are both wound different and different polarity, Both registering + should mean they are both in phase.
If you turn the probes around you get a - reading on the DMM.
Sonny, If I'm wrong let me know.
T

[Stratz]

Were the two pickups wired together to make a humbucker or did you just test them separately?

[big_teee]

separately.
I'll try it with them both wired together too!
T

[big_teee]

I tried it with both pickups in parallel, blacks together and white and yellow together.
Each pickup shows a + signal.
If I wire black and yellow and black and white together in parallel?
I get + on one, and - on the other.
So I think that does tells phasing like I suspected.
That answers my question on the bass Layout I drew earlier.
I will try tomorrow the SG guitar where one pickup is black, white, red, green(inside out).
And the other red, green, black, and white(outside in).
They should both be in phase.
T

[SonnyW]

Hi Teee, It looks like I need to do some more testing on this. Maybe I spoke too soon. Both the same would be the expected result if they are both in phase, even though they are wound to be a RWRP set, or so I presume. I have only compared this test on one pickup at a time versus the analog VOM method. It gives me the same result as my old Simpson meter did, every time I tried it, but the sign is opposite. I just took that into account looking for both to be the same. You used the black lead on the black wire, which is the same as I have always done- I put the red lead on whichever lead is the hot for that pickup in both the DVM test and the VOM test. I've been mostly using this on rewinds and humbuckers up to now, to make sure they are in phase with themselves - in other words to check my wiring. After reading your post this morning I tried both tests on a regular strat pickup south up clockwise and got - on the DVM and + on the VOM. So next I got out a RWRP mid: North up CCW and got the opposite: + on the DVM and - on the VOM. So that is still consistent with the comparison of the two test methods, but it wasn't what I expected and kind of shoots a hole in my theory, because they are in phase but RWRP. I've got to think some more on this and go back to my VOM method until I figure out why it doesn't always work the same. But it does bring up the question of why doesn't the old VOM method give the same result for a RWRP pair.

Edit - this test was not correct, because I failed to check the magnet polarity correctly. What I thought was south up on the first pickup was really north up. The RWRP pickup was also north up. The OP was correct - life sucks.

[big_teee]

I guess I don't know what I'm doing!
On the tele RWRP set I get the same reading on each pickup.
With using the black to black and red to white or yellow.
I thought that would be correct because we are checking current flow direction?
T

[SonnyW]

I guess I don't know what I'm doing!
On the tele RWRP set I get the same reading on each pickup.
With using the black to black and red to white or yellow.
I thought that would be correct because we are checking flow direction?
T

Don't rule out that it could be me that is doing something wrong. You are getting the result I would expect. So I went back and did it again on a diferent strat RWRP pair and I got the same result as you. I checked it twice. Black to black, which is the start. Red to white or yellow which is the finish. South / CW on the one, and North /CCW on the other. So that first pickup I grabbed this morning to test with, I must have misread it. It is one that came out of a guitar for a trade in. When I looked at it closer, the magnetic polarity was opposite, north up clockwise, I should have checked that better. So my last post was not correct. I'm going to go back and edit it.

[big_teee]

Thanks Sonny:
Until this thread I never did understand RWRP, and why they are compatible together.
As long as the current flows the same direction then they will be in phase not bucking each other.
That alone doesn't mean they cancel hum, just that they are in phase.
I suggest anyone interested try this DVM current/voltage test.
GL,
T

[Richard]

Just as a side note, I left my adjustable soldering iron on and plugged into the same power strip as my amp, made a hellacious buzz.

[big_teee]

As an aside, it is not necessary to use an analog ohmmeter (looking at ohms) for the phase test. With many digital meters you can measure the output millivolts directly. If your meter is capable of reading a few tens of DC millivolts then all you have to do is set it to the lowest DC millivolts scale and put your chunk of metal on the poles, let it settle down then watch the sign on the meter when you pull the metal away. Don't worry about the numbers, just the sign. You should get the opposite sign when you put the metal back. I have an old Simpson 260 on my bench that I used for years for this test, but to keep from swapping leads I often do the phase test instead using the multimeter built into my scope. The results are just as valid and I have tried this even with some of the cheap DVM's and they work too.

I want to reactivate this thread since the phasing has been discussed a lot lately.
This really works.
You don't need a Analog meter, or an expensive DMM.
I use a cheap DMM from Harbor Freight, think it costs $5-6 bucks.
Follow Sonny's instructions, and look for the + or - when doing the test with the steel.
T

[kayakerca]

As an aside, it is not necessary to use an analog ohmmeter (looking at ohms) for the phase test. With many digital meters you can measure the output millivolts directly. If your meter is capable of reading a few tens of DC millivolts then all you have to do is set it to the lowest DC millivolts scale and put your chunk of metal on the poles, let it settle down then watch the sign on the meter when you pull the metal away. Don't worry about the numbers, just the sign. You should get the opposite sign when you put the metal back. I have an old Simpson 260 on my bench that I used for years for this test, but to keep from swapping leads I often do the phase test instead using the multimeter built into my scope. The results are just as valid and I have tried this even with some of the cheap DVM's and they work too.

I want to reactivate this thread since the phasing has been discussed a lot lately.
This really works.
You don't need a Analog meter, or an expensive DMM.
I use a cheap DMM from Harbor Freight, think it costs $5-6 bucks.
Follow Sonny's instructions, and look for the + or - when doing the test with the steel.
T

This is the tutorial that made it clear to me in spades. A bit long, but IMO really good.

I guess I'm a visual learner.

[big_teee]

I like Sonny's way and it doesn't require an analog meter.
Hardly anyone has analog these days.
T

[Jason Rodgers]

Holy crap, I just learned a bunch. Thanks for that video!

So, this probably sounds like a newbie lightbulb moment, but I just realized a gap in my understanding of two humbucker setups: there are different conventions for magnet direction between neck and bridge. As the guy in the video said, the typical Gibson 2-bucker guitar has north in and south out, but other companies do both north up. On the Gibsons, that always puts north on the slugs and south on the screws, but other brands will have north and south on slugs and screws depending on whether the pickup is neck or bridge.

And so now I have to wonder... how the hell have I been reading the wiring diagrams on guitarelectronics.com?! Their diagrams show slugs in and screws out, so is it north in and south out?