New Love for Gibson 57 Classics and Forgeries

[old guy]

Hey,
I've been playing pro for about 40+ years and started winding 'er down about 8 years ago. Always hated 57 Classics by Gibsons and spent a small mega-fortune on boutique and my own creations only to scratch my head and try to figure out "WHY"?????
No ... it ain't the extra growth of hair and wax build-up in my canals - I weed whacked and use the pressure washer for regular hygiene and maintenance!
Recently, I replaced my SD Seth Lovers in my 2013 ES335 with the stock 57 Classics and wondered what da f--k happened??? They sounded amazing!
This prompted me to scour the net for used ones which found me buying a set on fleabay that were advertised as NOS mid 90s 57 Classic in the box. After chatting to the seller and confirming that they'd never been opened (desoldered, covers removed), I decided to take a chance and bought them.

I did this because although I love my (bought new) 2013 ES335 dot figured, it doesn't come close to sounding like what ES335s used to sound like. I've had 3 since the late 60s and they ALL had a beautiful 'nasally, woody, midrangy' type tone to them - right out of the box. Just listen to any Freddy King (ES345) youtube vids where he's playing his ES guitars - ALL ES series guitars sounded with those characteristics!!!!!

Nowadays, they ALL sound like les Pauls on steroids. I tried well over 50 of them back in 2013 and continue to do so today. Since the move to Memphis, they should be renamed. They are no longer AN ES SOUNDING GUITAR. Because of this, I sold my beautiful 2003 LP Standard last week - didn't need it anymore as I had her plus more in my ES335.

My previous ES335 was a 1994 - it had those tones I mention. That's why I jumped out of my skin when I saw this set on fleabay. I figured those pups held the key to the missing tones of my 2013. Some have said "it's the wood" ... it could be but, Gibson says they have changed nothing - BULLSHIT!!!! What an insult to someone who has had more than 20 high end Gibson guitars in a career spanning over 40 years.

On the forgery part of this note ... the pickups came as described. When I wired them into my 335 (no easy task), I was met with weak, generic sound ... NOTHING at all like my 2013 57 Classics which are powerful and creamy sounding.
Yes, the magnets are 20 years old. Could they have deteriorated? Me thinks not as I have other guitars with older pickups still kicking out the George Thorogood and Johnny Winter stuff and earsplitting pressure levels.
The most upsetting part is the Patent Applied For label. The text is new looking bright yellow and the font is off a C-hair. If I crack one of these open, does Gibson have any identifiers that would prove the pickup to be authentic?
What can be done to identify?

DCR Neck = 8.35k DCR Bridge = 8.46k Both a little high for 57 Classics.

I apologize for my title of thread. I did not mean I had a 'Love' of Forgeries. I just lumped the 2 topics together on one title without thinking how others may interpret it.

[big_teee]

Hi Old Guy:
8.35k seems high for a neck pickup.
As far as the magnets possibly being weak?
If you have a gauss meter, you can measure at the top of the pickup at the screws, and where the slugs are.
If you don't have a G. meter, you can take a piece of steel and stick to the poles, and compare to a known good pickup.
On a neck bucker, I personally lean toward the Seth Lover neck specs.
In the 7.2-7.4k range.
When you get over 5000 turns on a neck pickup, they get muddier than I like.
I listed my database records of what 57s might be wound like.

To fix them, you may have to take them out of the 335, take the covers off, and tune them in another guitar, that is easier to access.
You can tweak the magnets, and remove or add wire to the coils.

Please let us know here, what you come up with?
Thanks,
Terry

**Other humbucker winders, please jump in!

[old guy]

Thanks Big_Teee,

I'm already running Seth Lovers in the 335. Neck 7.4k, bridge 8.2k. They were bought as a calibrated set. My knowledge of 57 Classics says they hover around the high 7s - not anywhere in the 8ohm spectrum. That's the job of the 57+ ... anywhere from 8.4 - 9.1k. Both of my ES335 stock 57s are 7.98k - both of them.
Here's what's missing on these supposed mid 90s NOS pups ----- the shizzle!!!! My 2013 57s have that really nice, shimmering sizzle or shizzle around every note - especially when attacked aggressively AND, they just don't have any character of quality tone around them. That, combined with the PAF sticker have me really concerned that they are knock-offs put into a period correct clear plastic Gibson box.

Me thinks I'd rather send these off to Gibson for inspection. Therefore I don't want to crack one open yet. I'll find out from Gibson tomorrow if'n they'll do that. I won't put them back up for sale because I HATE F___NG FRAUDELENT BASTARDS IN THE MUSIC BUZINESS or any business for that matter.

[elipsey]

Hi,

I took couple of measurements and pictures of a set of 57 Classic/57 Classic Plus I have lying around. I got them used on ebay also, and was told that they came out of an SG which I believewas supposed to be a "60's Tribute" model. I don't know of any reason to doubt their authenticity, and as far as I can tell the covers have never been removed. The flaking of the PAF sticker happened a while after I bought them. I would characterize their sound as clear and "smooth", with slightly less treble then some vintage style pickups, when using 500K pots. I haven't tried them with lower value pots (e.g. 300Kohm), but I would expect them to sound very dark (lacking in treble) in that case.

The DC resistance for these pickups tests as 8.10K (for the neck) and 8.33K (for the bridge, or "plus", model) at 80 degrees farenheight ambient temperature. Keep in mind that DCR mearsurements will be substantially affected by temperature -- somewhere, I have written down the measurement of these same pickups at 68F, and I believe it was around 7.80K and 8.20K. I can try to find the notes if you really want to know. The pole spacing is 49mm for both pickups.

It sounds like you are concered about the authenticity of your pickups, so I hope this helps. --Chris

[big_teee]

If they are knock-off import copies?
They may be using nickel, or chrome plated brass covers?
Brass covers, do rob the highs, and deaden the pickups some.

If you can interest Gibson to check the pickups out, that would be great.
I doubt they will want to fool with them.

Since you can wind your own pickups, I would not fool with bought pickups, but please, do what you like!
GL,
T

[elipsey]

This

I think my 57 Classics sound pretty good, but I'm getting around to winding my own and selling these any minute now, which is why I put the stock pickups back in my SG.

[big_teee]

SD Antiquity is around 7.8k, like Elipsey says his 57 neck is at 68F degrees.
That looks about right to me!

[old guy]

Thanks Guys,

Yupp... I'm aware of the temperature thing when measuring DCR. My 'test' guitar is an Epiphone SG400. I bought it when I started winding my own pups 3 years ago. This was to save wear&tear on my real SG ('92 Gibson Standard) which also had 57 Classics which had that 'shizzle/sizzle' about them. For some stupid reason, I got rid of them. I was drinking a lot when I was a full-timer on the road.

If anything, I'd like to get my money back ($150) from the guy I bought them from; if, they are fraudulent.
If they are real, I will sell them. Everybody's ears are different so, if I post soundclips on a site somewhere, someone will probably like them.

[Jim Darr]

The 57 Classics have measured from below 8K to about 8.4K, although Gibson specs say 7.5K. Wound with, supposedly, 42 plain enamel magnet wire, A2 magnets, and wax potted.

The Classic Plus, which yours may be, have measured about 8.5K – 9.5K (Gibson specs say 8.5K). Some posters have said as high of about 13K, but I cannot confirm. Gibson specs also says A2 magnets, fully wax potted, wound with “enamel-like coated” wire, and balanced coils.

You might want to check your wiring and pot values on your test guitar, SG and 335 to make sure they are wired the same. Small changes in values, brand of components, or hook-up wiring can result in big changes in sound...just a thought to consider.

[mr fab]

i just want to add, that have you considered, that the 57's are authentic, but you may have a struck a particularly dark set?.

i have encountered overly bright, dark, and lifeless pickups from duncan in the SH1 variety (all supposedly the same model) ; and i suspect gibson pickups could be prone to the same issues.. possibly due to variations in batches of wire, magnets etc.

[copperheadroads]

They read just what is expected it the little hotter part of the summer & further south
57+ in the bridge & 57 in the neck
2012 set read 8.10k bridge & 8.07k neck

[Steve A.]

I also have the projected data of a SD Antiquity.
It is around the 7.8k, like Elipsey says his 57 neck is at 68F degrees.
That looks about right to me!
Here's the data for that.

Let me get my magnifying glass out...



Steve

[Steve A.]

FWIW I have a brand new SD Firebird mini-hb that I bought 15 years ago that had sat in the store for years and it was very weak, like the magnet had lost its charge. But I guess that with both of the Classic 57s being weak I would suspect forgeries.

Steve

[big_teee]

Not sure why these particular pickups are dull sounding without that sizzle you're looking for?
These are some of the things that effect tone in a humbucker.

The Baseplate, needs to be nickel silver.(provided you want a bright pickup, and not trying to darken the tone)
The pole screws and slug steel, effects tone. (very important)
The magnet, what it is made of, and what gauss. (Important, & All magnets are not created equal)
Next, is the bobbin, any good quality bobbin should work fine.
The Wire on the bobbin, which is a huge varible.(Wire type, diameter, ohms per foot, height, & overall diameter of the coil)
Wire on the bobbin? How many turns, tension, and TPL.(all effects tone)
Last but not least, is the Cover, metal type, thickness, all effects tone.

When testing a humbucker, I test prototypes without covers.
Usually, the rule of thumb is for the pickup to be a bit bright with the cover off.
When the cover is installed, the pickup will be a bit less bright.
GL,
T

**edit
Another factor that can effect sparkle, sizzle, and pick harmonics, is wax potting.
If you want humbuckers more lively, I would not pot the coils.
Wind with good tension, and tape the coils well with paper tape.
Then you can drip a little wax in the cover when installed.
That should keep the cover from being microphonic.

[Stratz]

The early 57 classics were wound differently than the later/current models. The early year ones I've measured were from 1991 or so.
All 57's have 5250 winds on both bobbins. I cant recall the Plus turn count but I believe it was 100 more winds per bobbin which would = 5350 winds per bobbin.

The screw bobbins have always been wound at the same TPL (which I will not post here because of all the lurkers that only take but never give) but the early slug bobbins were wound on a machine that had the quick return function laying down roughly 1/2 the TPL from R to L as compared to L to R

If the bobbin had ~100 tpl (arbitrary #) from L-R it would have ~50 tpl from R-L

This has changed with the newer/current models. Both the screw and slug bobbins now have the same TPL from R-L and L-R.

The 57's are roughly 8.0k @68*F/20*C

I've owned, dissected, unwound, measured and recreated both the early and current '57's (2012 model) and there's a noticeable difference in the sound between the early and current models.