My struggle with humbucker low end chime.

[Albatross]

Hey guys, I've been experimenting winding my own humbuckers for a few months now.
I've had a bunch of fun winding different test bobbins and doing a bunch of iterations and magnet swapping to better understand what variables impact what the final outcome will be.

One of the things I've been struggling with is getting a humbucker with full low mids/low end at a moderate resistance, lets say 8-12k.
When I compare my own models with some various Duncans or some of the modern Gibson pickups in the same guitar, I notice most of mine are lacking in that low end chime and fullness that I love.

I did one test, winding with 42awg to match the resistance of my Duncan 59' and even "borrowing" the magnet from the Duncan so the only differences would be my bobbins and screws/slugs.
So at this point, I'm assuming my goal of improving the low end response is in my winding itself, the inductance ect.

I know by scatterwinding I'm never going to get the same effect as machine, but I'd like to better understand what variables will impact the low end response of a pickup besides just higher wind count.
What would you guys recommend playing with? More TPL? More tension? You guys are the best, the wealth of knowledge on this board is invaluable.

[big_teee]

Before answering we need more info.
Is this mainly for a bridge pickup, probably in a LP type guitar?
What Duncan and Gibson model pickups are you comparing too?
Also are these covered or uncovered humbuckers?
What bobbin height are your bobbins? Measured between the flats?
What magnet type are you wanting to use, A2, A5, etc?
Screws, slugs, and baseplate type also have influence on tone.
Nickel is brighter than brass.
Also the tone ckt in the guitar has much to do with tone.
T

[Albatross]

Yes specifically for Bridge position fixed bridge guitar.
The pickups I've been testing and comparing with are all uncovered
When I'm comparing my pickups I use the exact same guitar with the same pickup height.
All baseplates have been nickel, I've been using a variety of magnets to mess around but yes mostly A2 and A5 builds.

For the experiment I'm referring to, I took apart a Duncan 59 bridge humbucker and only changed out my bobbins (also my slugs and screws), which were wound to the same resistance.
I used the Duncan baseplate, magnet, keeper bar lead wire and installed in the same guitar to the same pickup height. I noticed that the version with my bobbins had much less low mid chime to it.
Because pretty much all variables are the same here except the bobbins themselves I'm fairly certain that what I need to play with is my wind technique.
I guess my question really is, just looking at the winding alone what are some aspects of the wind will effect bass response of a humbucker in that resistance range?

I should add that this lack of low end seems to be a common theme with most of the builds I have done so far. I like the detail and clarity of the one's I've made but when I plug in some of my favorite pickups I notice almost immediately they have a wider sound. So that's why I would like to focus on how to dial that in, with my own builds

[big_teee]

Thanks for all the info.
Don't have data on a 59 bridge, but it should be similar to a Seth Lover bridge.
Are you winding to resistance, or by turn count.
Different size wire does make a difference in tone, and I would concentrate on number of turns, not resistance?
Here is a picture of my interpretation of a Seth Lover data. for comparison.

**Others feel free to jump in!

[Albatross]

The chart I have says the 59 bridge was 42 gauge wire (no mention of turns) so I just wound the bobbins symmetrically to match the resistance with the same gauge wire.
But I'm not really trying to duplicate a specific pickup. I just want to understand some basic things I can do winding technique-wise to increase the bass response of my pickups with all other factors equal material-wise.
I'm just trying to figure out what makes that happen.

[big_teee]

When I wound a lot, I did lots of trial and error.
When I was trying to perfect something, I would make at least 2 pickups.
Install and play one, then make changes to the other one.
Then play the second one, and make changes to the first one.
Swap again, until I got it to suit, in that particular guitar.
I notice in your other bobbin post, you have more resistance, or turns on the screw bobbin.
I liked the slug bobbin with the most turns, because it is further from the bridge.
I do a little offset on the bridge pickup, and like the neck pickup with no offset.
A5s should have more bass than A2s.
GL,
T
** Here's what Lindy Fralin says about over and under winding
Overwinding increases the midrange and output of a pickup, while decreasing the highs. Essentially, the pickup gets "thicker" in tone
Underwinding a pickup, or adding less turns than our Stock models, will "scoop" the midrange and emphasize the Lows and Highs. essentially, the pickup gets clearer and cleaner
Here's a link to his article.
https://www.fralinpickups.com/2019/1...ding-a-pickup/

[Helmholtz]

All typical electromagnetic pickups have a flat frequency response from 1Hz to around 500Hz.
So all you can influence is midrange and treble response.

[soundmasterg]

Hand-winding is great for single coil pickups, but there is a reason all the successful humbucker designs are wound with a machine.

Greg

[Helmholtz]

but there is a reason all the successful humbucker designs are wound with a machine.

Yes, cost and reproducibility.

There's no physical reason why a machine wound humbucker should sound different from a handwound one - provided that other parameters are the same.

Some of the best sounding HBs I've tried were handwound (I own real PAFs for comparison/reference).

[big_teee]

Hand-winding is great for single coil pickups, but there is a reason all the successful humbucker designs are wound with a machine.

Maybe to clarify this a bit.
Since most new guys winding, are winding by hand?
I still do.
Humbuckers use narrower plastic bobbins?
The smaller the height between the flats, the more critical it is to be consistent.
Fender single coil bobbins are much taller, .4-.5 inches.
Most humbucker bobbins are .25 inch or less.
So scatter winding makes it harder to be consistent by hand.
If you wind slower, use a tension gauge, you should be able to do good at consistency.
In this B/H forum area, we encourage winding of all types, with whatever winding gear you have.
GL & keep winding,
T

[Jim Darr]

Old post...not sure if you got your answer. My two cents...

For your example/results don't forget to factor-in:

Bare coil wire diameter
Coil wire insulation thickness
Winding Pattern(s)
Coil offset
Potential wire stretching
Pigtail attachment method - especially on "wire start" end
Number of turns (IMO, in this instance and most situations, much more important than DC Resistance)

Good Luck

Jim