Too Bright - Am I not using enough tension?

[littlewyan]

I've made good progress since you all helped me here as my pickups are actually usable now! Really appreciate the help there. However, they're very bright and trebly. I usually have the treble on the amp at 5 but with the pickups I'm making I have to bring it down to 3! I can even turn the guitar tone control down to 5 and it'll still be a tad too bright. I'm wondering if I'm not using enough tension. After winding a pickup I can stick my finger nails inbetween the coil wire on the pickup and move it about a bit. Obviously this isn't a particularly precise test! But I think I did read a post where someone said the wire should be relatively tight? I know there are different levels of tension of course and that's a bit of a secret, but should it be loose enough that I can move the wire like that?

I'm currently winding 5650 turns with 75TPL.

[mozz]

Single coils? Humbuckers?

[littlewyan]

Ah sorry, humbuckers.

[littlewyan]

Nickel baseplate, Alnico 2 Smooth long magnet, 1018 pole pieces. I’m not sure the spec is the issue though, I feel like I’m just doing something fundamentally wrong to make them sound this thin and trebly…..

[Helmholtz]

Maybe your coils are connected out-of-phase.

[littlewyan]

No I’ve made that mistake before! Definitely not that.

[Helmholtz]

Did you compare with a reference PU (same guitar, cable, amp)?

Do you have an LCR meter?

[littlewyan]

Similar guitar, both Les Pauls, same amp. The other guitar has a Super 57, 5750 turns, Alnico 2 Smooth.

I do, for this pickup I measured 5.248H 1Khz and 5.626H 100Hz. Also measured 146pf at 100Khz parallel capacitance. 8.35K at 20.8 degrees C. My resistance readings always seem a bit low.

[Helmholtz]

Does your LCR meter read the Q value?
If so, measure both coils individually for L and Q at 1kHz.

[mozz]

Numbers look good, could be the tension. I can bet the original pickups winders such as Gibson had the tension fairly high, to save on wire. A2 should be a bit darker than A5, though what you buy these days who knows if you are really getting a A2. Try swapping a A5 in there and see if there's a difference, there should be. Check your wiring.

[big_teee]

What guage of magnet wire are you using?
42 or 43?
T

[littlewyan]

I can't measure coils individually right now as the pickup is still in the guitar, but I've measured another I made that had the same treble issue. 5650 Turns, 42AWG Poly, 70TPL, Alnico 2 Smooth, 5.258H 1Khz, 5.633H 100Hz, 135pF 100Khz, 2.43Q 1Khz, 8.38K 21 Degrees C.

I have tried an A5 and an A4, both make the pickup even brighter and give it more output. Wiring is all fine and it still measures fine after I've installed it into the guitar.

42AWG Poly wire, all of my pickups are made with this. I believe the stuff I've currently got is 1.75Ohms per foot. Using the jd guitarworks coil estimator I'm nearly at 100% perfect if I tap my numbers in! My bobbin size is spot on with the numbers on the calculator.

Maybe I'm using too much tension? Although I'm not sure I could hold the wire much looser than I already am! I do hold my hand about 1-2inches away from the bobbin, but I figured machine winders are pretty close so it shouldn't be an issue.

[mozz]

I guess pictures of the coils would be the next thing. What are you using to wind the coils? Maybe your counter is off though your resistance appears normal.

[Helmholtz]

Different winding methods (hand, machine, tension, TPL) change L, C and R but otherwise should not have a direct influence on sound.
A loosely wound coil can make PU microphonic (without potting).

Your L and C values are typical for a somewhat overwound PAF type and don't explain an overly bright sound.

Did you use a very short cable for your listening tests?
Remember that cable capacitance has a strong influence on treble response.

The measurements on individual coils I suggested are intended to find out if there are shorted turns.

[littlewyan]

Here are photos of a coil I made. This one has 5600 turns on it. How does it look? As if it's been wound tight? Too loose? I did try and find a reference but struggled to find clear photos of wound coils in this state to compare with.

I'm using a homemade machine, just a simple motor with this counter: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01DNLRA...629781_TE_item
I was wondering if the counter was off, but I'd assume the only way it could be off is by missing turns, not the other way around, in which case it'd have the opposite effect and I'd be putting more wire on than I think. I've attached an image of the winder, it's simple but it can spin a bobbin nice and straight.

I use a 20ft coil lead for all testing, it's a lead I've used for years. When I have a spare moment I'll wind another couple of coils and I'll take Q measurements. It's definitely something I'm doing fundermentally wrong as most of my pickups I've wound have been like this.