Talk to me about whisker disks

[ReWind]

They seem to be popular here. ...but they seem to snap wire in my lab.

If I use no tensioner and a whisker disk, my wire snaps. If I use some light felt tension and a whisker disk, my wire snaps. If I use an expensive Azonic tension head and a whisker disk, my wire snaps (I ran the wire through it about 15 different ways, bypassing this or that part - no luck).

If I use a jerry-rigged setup of a cardboard box with a funnel on top and a C clamp with some folded up flannel in it as a tension device, I have no problems! ...but this system doesn't allow for documented and recalled tension settings and it needs constant attention (every 10 or so bobbins depending on it's mood).

So I must ask, you guys who are using whisker disks successfully - what speed are you winding at? I'm working at 3000-3200RPMs, but I can't even get half that with the lightest tension (L-6) disk that Azonic makes on a 6" spool or 42AWG PE.

I know that some winders use the Azonic tension heads but bypass the spring gauge. Again, at what speed? I get the constant jerking then a snap at even a few hundred RPMs at the very lowest tension settings and the gauge bypassed, even without the whisker disk.

I can go back to my "clamped flannel" setup, but it's inconsistent and I want something I can better document and recall to repeat previous builds.

Can I get a few tips from the vets, please? I've read through the old posts here and I feel like I've tried much of this already. I don't think a fish poll dancer arm will work at the high speeds I use. What sort of buffer can I use to minimize the bobbin jerk at these speeds? I'm I stuck with the wing nut/felt method? Guess it works for some of the big names.

[David King]

I think at those speed you'll need to change over to a stationary bobbin winder where the wire gets guided all the way around and onto the bobbin but gets a twist with every turn. The winder needs a hollow shaft which the wire can run down. One of the mini or micro mills that uses a drawbar would be the ideal platform.

[Martin Pedder]

I live on the electronics side of this forum, but occasionally I dive in to the murky waters of your posts just to see what is going on. I have no idea what a whisker disk is or even what you are making on your bobbin winders, but I know the world needs you and it broadens my horizons. Keep it up.

Martin

[ReWind]

David,

Thank you for the reply. I understand what you are suggesting - something like a Gorman Spin Winder. ...but I don't understand why a "turning bobbin" style winder shouldn't work at my speeds. I've been using two of my machines successfully at those speeds, without breaking wire, for hundreds of bobbins just using felt and a clamp as a tensioner. There are many commercial rotating shaft winders that operate at those speeds and higher. The Star Winder goes up to 10,000 RPMs and I know a number of pickup winders use that model.

Also - I don't really need to wind that fast. ...but I can't even go above a few 100 RPMs with out snapping the wire using any combination of the Azonic devices. How fast are the guys using whisker discs here winding? How fast are the guys using the Azonic tension heads winding?

I can't get either to work after spending several hours playing with them. I'm going to mess with it a little more (and talk to the manufacturer) before giving up.

Any suggestions in the meantime are more than appreciated.

[Jazz P Bass]

Never heard the term, myself.
Fisher Baker Corporation

[David King]

The jerking action on the wire as the oblong bobbin is being wound is the cause of the breakage. How long a distance is there between the bobbin and the tensioner? If you can have 2 feet of wire free and clear between the two the jerk will be spread out and absorbed more easily in the wire.
Long ago the Japanese discovered that they could use gravity as their tensioning device and would run the wire straight up or diagonally across a room from the floor up to the ceiling. Tension was provided by the weight of the wire. No traverse or guide was necessary as the wire would always seek the lowest point of the bobbin to wind to. It's low tech but might be worth experimenting with.
You should certainly be able to wind at 2000 RPM all day without breaks unless the problem is with your wire spool. Spools that get dropped in shipment or were incorrectly re-spooled can cause no end of problems as many folks here can tell you.

[ReWind]

Thanks again, David. Interesting you ask about the length of wire between the bobbin and tensioner. Earlier this morning I tried to ask if a wire path could be too short, but the forum crapped out on me and went down for a bit. My entire wire path from spool to bobbin has been 2.5-4' throughout my experiments with this new tensioning gear so far.

This morning I was able to successfully wind several thousand turns on a bobbin at a full 3200 RPM with no whisker disk and the tensioner set up at minimum tension and a few notches above. It was a beautiful coil too very even and tight. I'm really hoping to make this gear work out now after seeing that. I had pulled the wire away (between the tensioner and traverse) with my hand and a bit of flannel, adding a few feet to the path. I also engaged a tailstock on my winder, likely stabilizing things better at high speed.

Now I KNOW it can be done.

I suspect that the whisker disk I got may be too large. It's a 6", but I've realized my spools from MWS are not actually 6". Oops! I think with a 5" whisker disk I might have better luck.

Pretty cool about the gravity/wire across the room method. It wouldn't work for me because I'm interested in something adjustable that can be documented and repeated. I like the idea of it though. No traverse, wire across the room with a gravity tensioned feed. I'm envisioning this in a Japanese pagoda with paper walls and it feels very "zen" hehe!

[big_teee]

Remington sells all that stuff too.
5" Heavy Wire Wisker Disc - Model H5 Details | Remington Industries
Add to cart to get the price.
T

[jason lollar]

whisker disc should only go about 1/2 past the edge of the spool or youll have too much tension and they will even make you customised discs for whatever you are trying to do. I only use it for a pre tensioner then i can still vary the tension but it makes the settings more consistant and when winding with heavier wire like 38 gauge you dont have to ramp down the speed before shut off like you would without the disc so it eliminates waterfall.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

What angle is your spool to your first tensioner? I try to "point" my spool at my first tensioner (felt washers over a rod) so that it comes off of the spool the same for all 360 degrees. Otherwise, it'll tug at some point.

I use the disks and swear by them, but you can't expect them to do TOO much for you. It is really handy for making sure the wire doesn't go out of control in that early stage of the path, and frankly the better the spooling, the less important I find the disk.

I'll double what David said about lengths. I try to get as much length as my work space will allow. An added benefit is that it seems to help with the center pudge on long bobbins.

[ReWind]

My tensioner is directly above the spool. ...well at least the Azonic one is. I'm using their stand for it when I use it. I've gone back to the felt clamps and funnels though as my wire just snaps 50% of the time with the Aznoic stuff.

I have played around with the Azonic setup a bit more now though and I can get it to work well at times, but not consistently. When it does work without the wire snapping, it's a wonderful system. I'm trying to reach my contact there with some questions, or perhaps to exchange the tension head for another more suitable model. I'd like for this stuff to work out. It seems to be a very nice system.

I'll try lengthening my total distance between tensioner and bobbin even more, as well. Maybe I'll put a small eyelet in the ceiling and go up and back down.

[ReWind]

whisker disc should only go about 1/2 past the edge of the spool or youll have too much tension and they will even make you customised discs for whatever you are trying to do. I only use it for a pre tensioner then i can still vary the tension but it makes the settings more consistant and when winding with heavier wire like 38 gauge you dont have to ramp down the speed before shut off like you would without the disc so it eliminates waterfall.

Thanks, Jason. I think you are onto something. My whisker disk hung off the edge of the spool by about an inch all around. That could well be the problem. It did seem (by hand) to add a significant amount of tension.

Would it be asking to much to know what you set your tension with after the whisker disk? Felt clamps or one of the commercial-type tension heads or something else?

[jason lollar]

felt with a clamp but it takes alot of experience to get consistant results all day long. i tried the azonic tensioners a long time ago and could never get them to work at a reasonable speed

[Possum]

The Azonic tensioners only work if you bypass the tension gauge part of it, thats the part that starts bouncing and thats why the wire breaks. I know one maker who uses the tensioner but bypasses that part. So you set your tension then remove the feed from that pulley on the spring gauge. I don't know if the tension remains the same throughout the winding though, I got tired of screwing and returned it for a refund a long time ago.

[ReWind]

Yes, I knew about the tension gauge spring and the bouncing problem before I even tried the Azonic system. I've bypassed that (and also tried just locking it in place with a rubber band). I'm not really having the oscillation problem, it's more that the inertia of the system seems to be too much for high speed. Unfortunately, my main winder does not go all the way down to 0 RPMs, but has a range of a several hundred to about 3.5K. The starts are too quick on the tensioning system for the thin wire. I even tried reducing the motor power with a variac, but it's just a single phase motor and I'm not dumping the cost of another machine into the big DC motor that this machine would require for a conversion. I'm trying to reach my contact at Azonic to try a lesser tension version before I give up entirely and go back to felt. The folks there have been very kind and were even aware of the problems with oblong pickup bobbins, but offered to give me a free trial run with their system to see if I can get it working. A very pleasant experience working with them so far. I HAVE had it work for 10-20 bobbins, when set to the lowest tension setting, and they came out very nice. I just can't get consistent reliability out of it. I'm hoping a few grams less on the lower tension system will do the trick.