Forum's Ugliest Winder. . . Almost complete

[RedHouse]

So, I have been an innocent by stander taking in all the cam building.
Have a few elementry questions.
When you make this cam, are you locked in to bobbin height.
I vary my bobbin height greatly on different pickups.
Is the cam the mechanism that controls the traverse width?
Don't really understand the whole concept.
Please answer that question, then I will ask the others?
T

Look at the pic movablepivotbase1.gif in my post above. On this machine changing bobbins (heigh ) was adjusted by moving the linkage arm to another "hook", the top hook is for doing Strat bobbins, the bottom is for humbucker bobbins. This "pivot arm" concept was my answer (back then) to different bobbin heights.

If you look closely at the arm attached to the pivot block you can see a couple of hex-head 4-40 screws which can further fine-tune the total throw/height by lengthening/shortening the arm.

[kayakerca]

So, I have been an innocent by stander taking in all the cam building.
Have a few elementry questions.
When you make this cam, are you locked in to bobbin height.
I vary my bobbin height greatly on different pickups.
Is the cam the mechanism that controls the traverse width?
Don't really understand the whole concept.
Please answer that question, then I will ask the others?
T

Hi Terry:

My CAM traverser is a little different from the one in the pictures of Brad's setup. Mine is more the classic Jason Lollar style from his book. My CAM is cut to be for a particular bobbin height, say 7/16" and if it were mounted perfectly on the traverser mounting plate and there were no "slop" in my traverser drive and the traverser motor turned at the exact same rpm all the time, it would cause the push rod traverse in my winding rig to traverse exactly 7/16" with a nice flat wind. As always in my stuff, there is a "however". However. . . I cannot mount anything to the centre of my traverser mounting plated as that's where the screw that mounts it to the drive is located. So, I cut slots in the CAM, one between the centre point and each of the end "V's" of the CAM. I use 4-40 cap head screws to mount the CAM to threaded inserts in the traverser mounting plate. I then adjust the left/right of the CAM along the slots until I achieve the 7/16" travel I would have had, had I been able to mount it perfectly in the middle. There is also ~ 40 thou of slop in the traverser drive which affects life as well. I put enough pressure on the springs that return the travserer such that the slop is always pushed out under pressure. With all the slop and other factors, I'm still working at getting a really good CAM shape. Hopefully, if I live to be a real old guy I'll have enough time to hit the mark.

[RedHouse]

...Mine is more the classic Jason Lollar style from his book...

My first machine was built right out of Jason's book, looked the same as the one's in his pictures. In fact one time I went over to his shop on the Island and there was his original's hanging on the wall in the back of the shop. He probably wouldn't recall, but it was a very cool day for me and my wife.

The 2nd machine works great but looks really stupid, everything was an afterthought, that's why the traverse mechanism is slapped onto the front, the sync gearbox and diff over on the left-side, pivoting traverse added onto a board screwed down onto the front-right, sheesh.

...I'm still working at getting a really good CAM shape. Hopefully, if I live to be a real old guy I'll have enough time to hit the mark...

Once you get it, it's all good from there.
(and you'll probably make more Cam's after that)

Much later you might want to contemplate sync'ing the bobbin shaft to your cam mechanism (the fan motor will eventually have to go) then you will really get after it, you'll be able to get accurate TPL and traverse patterns going on.

In that video clip I posted of my #2 machine you can just barely see a O-ring driven gearbox to the left of the Cam differential, through it (and some gears) the bobbin shaft gets sync'ed to the traverse so when you set it up for x-turns-per-layer that's exactly what you get. That and a countdown timer makes for nearly full-auto winding.

[kayakerca]

My first machine was built right out of Jason's book, looked the same as the one's in his pictures. In fact one time I went over to his shop on the Island and there was his original's hanging on the wall in the back of the shop.

That would be very cool!

Once you get it, it's all good from there.
(and you'll probably make more Cam's after that)

Much later you might want to contemplate sync'ing the bobbin shaft to your cam mechanism (the fan motor will eventually have to go) then you will really get after it, you'll be able to get accurate TPL and traverse patterns going on.

In that video clip I posted of my #2 machine you can just barely see a O-ring driven gearbox to the left of the Cam differential, through it (and some gears) the bobbin shaft gets sync'ed to the traverse so when you set it up for x-turns-per-layer that's exactly what you get. That and a countdown timer makes for nearly full-auto winding.

I recognize that the traverser drive is the huge weak point right now. I control the tpl based on a rheostat and tachometer setup running against the pulley that the second sewing machine motor uses to drive the fan motor 250:1 gear down ratio. It's fairly accurate but the slop in the gear box is brutal. I will have to start thinking about the next traverser. Unfortunately any electronics type applications are not part of my skill set.

[RedHouse]

...That would be very cool!...

It was, he (and his wife) were very nice. I loved touring his shop, noticed his own workbench is tall so he can stand and work, reason I noticed is because my main workbench is similar (I have a bad back).

...Unfortunately any electronics type applications are not part of my skill set...

Last mechanical setup I did before making the jump to CNC was using a RC model (radio controlled Rock Crawler) transmission as the gearbox, they are small and gears are metal so will last forever in this application. I think the one I got was a Z-U0013 transmission it's like 30:1 so with that and a few pulleys I got a useful range of TPL's. It's easy to do a 2:1 pulley ratio on the input shaft to the trans to get a 60-TPL, a 3:1 for a 90-TPL etc, or anywhere in between where you want to be, and again since they're mechanical, and sync'ed, you start getting consistancy from coil-to-coil like never before.
(without buying a machine for several thousand buck's)

My main "driving force" to get more automated was because I need to do so much other work in my shop that hunching over the machine hand-guiding wire was taking too much time specially when I have to do multiple coils. When added the auto-traverse to the #2 winder it free'd me up to do other things while the bobbins are spinning.

[kayakerca]

Last mechanical setup I did before making the jump to CNC was using a RC model (radio controlled Rock Crawler) transmission as the gearbox, they are small and gears are metal so will last forever in this application. I think the one I got was a Z-U0013 transmission it's like 30:1 so with that and a few pulleys I got a useful range of TPL's. It's easy to do a 2:1 pulley ratio on the input shaft to the trans to get a 60-TPL, a 3:1 for a 90-TPL etc, or anywhere in between where you want to be, and again since they're mechanical, and sync'ed, you start getting consistancy from coil-to-coil like never before.
(without buying a machine for several thousand buck's)

Questions, questions, questions. . .What type of motor did you use to drive the transmission and was it a fixed or variable speed? Is that the setup you posted earlier in the thread? Never having been into RC, I'm have no knowledge on how these these work together.

Thanks in advance Brad.

[RedHouse]

...What type of motor did you use to drive the transmission and was it a fixed or variable speed?...

Probably should'nt worry about it at this point in time, you're just now getting your winder working well. It's not a "big deal" all I'm saying is that it was (for me) the next step beyond the orignal Lollar fan-motor-driving-the traverse design.

I don't use a separate motor, if you use a separate motor you get out of sync with the bobbin rotation, then your TPL (and eventually your wind pattern) gets outta whack. So if you do a PTO thing, where you get a belt (or gears or whatever) driven off the same shaft that spins the bobbin, then everything stays "coordinated" or "in sync".

My thought were, when using a separate motor, and lets just say you manage to start them at exactly the same nano-second, and you manage to get the same RPM (highly unlikely unless you use a servo motor with feedback) then one motor will eventualluy out pace the other, then your TPL starts to go off relative to you cam's position. Does it matter? depends on you.

Let's say we're trying for 70-TPL, and both are in sync but they get outta sync oh maybe 5 turns out of every 100 (which is not much, and totally reasonable when they are individual motors running on their own) and lets say when you started Turn-1 your traverse is all the way to the left, then after the expected 70 turns the traverse has not reached the right limit yet because it still has 5 turns to go, now we should be onto layer-2 but the traverse has not started layer-2 yet.

Where is the traverse going to be on layer 50 when it's supposed to be all the way to the left to start layer 51? two motors without positional feedback can't keep the TPL locked-in. When they are separate motors driving them the TPL is a basically an educated guess.

None of this prevents you from winding a great sounding pickup, it's when you need to wind another just like it that things like this start to matter.

[ReWind]

Interesting conversation. I recently de-coupled the drive shaft from the traverse on one of my winders and mounted a gear motor to the chassis with a pot and resistor bank to control the traverse. The traverse had previously been belt/pulley coupled to the main drive. I did this mod to vary TPL mid-wind and it does make some pretty cool sounding coils. ...but yes, consistency isn't its strong point. Each coil is a little unique.

Then again, I have two other winders with drive shaft driven traverse systems to do the bulk of my winding, so I wanted to do something different with that one.

[kayakerca]

I don't use a separate motor, if you use a separate motor you get out of sync with the bobbin rotation, then your TPL (and eventually your wind pattern) gets outta whack. So if you do a PTO thing, where you get a belt (or gears or whatever) driven off the same shaft that spins the bobbin, then everything stays "coordinated" or "in sync".

My thought were, when using a separate motor, and lets just say you manage to start them at exactly the same nano-second, and you manage to get the same RPM (highly unlikely unless you use a servo motor with feedback) then one motor will eventualluy out pace the other, then your TPL starts to go off relative to you cam's position. Does it matter? depends on you.

Let's say we're trying for 70-TPL, and both are in sync but they get outta sync oh maybe 5 turns out of every 100 (which is not much, and totally reasonable when they are individual motors running on their own) and lets say when you started Turn-1 your traverse is all the way to the left, then after the expected 70 turns the traverse has not reached the right limit yet because it still has 5 turns to go, now we should be onto layer-2 but the traverse has not started layer-2 yet.

Where is the traverse going to be on layer 50 when it's supposed to be all the way to the left to start layer 51? two motors without positional feedback can't keep the TPL locked-in. When they are separate motors driving them the TPL is a basically an educated guess.

None of this prevents you from winding a great sounding pickup, it's when you need to wind another just like it that things like this start to matter.

OK, I see what you mean by your sync up. I agree that my 2 motor setup could never make 2 perfectly identical pickups. But they would be pretty close. I use rheostats in conjunction with tachometer on each of the traverser motor and winder motor (via a dpdt switch that you can see in the pick of my winder from the first post). Say my traverser motor turns at 1,000 rpm and the step-down of the fan's oscilator gearing is 250:1. That means the CAM is rotating at 4 rpm, which is 4 rpm X 2 traverses/rpm or 8 traverses per minute. Now, if say, the winder motor is running at 800 rpm, then that wind is laying down 100 tpl ( 800 rpm on the winder ÷ 8 traverses per minute). Now if the speed of the traverser varies a bit it really doesn't matter as the error is the changed rpm ÷ 250, which is negligible. And if the winder were turning at 820 rpm vs. 800 rpm as desired, your tpl would be 102.5 tpl vs 100 tpl (820 rpm of the winder ÷ 8 traverses per minute). Again, not a huge deal for a beginner like myself. The big advantage from my look at things is that I can vary both the rpm of the traverser motor and winder motor to easily adjust the tpl simply by using the respective rheostats to dial in new rpm numbers for either motor based a little spreadsheet I created to calculate tpl based on any combination of traverser or winder speed (see spreadsheet attached).

Right now my biggest challenge is getting the CAM shape as close to producing a flat layout as possible (with a tiny dip at either end at the flatwork).

[RedHouse]

Nice explanation, Brad. I recently de-coupled the drive shaft from the traverse on one of my winders and mounted a gear motor to the chassis with a pot and resistor bank to control the traverse. The traverse had previously been belt/pulley coupled to the main drive. I did this mod to vary TPL mid-wind and it does make some pretty cool sounding coils. ...but yes consistency isn't it's strong point. Each coil is a little unique...

Thanks.

[Stratz]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]20949[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]20947[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]20948[/ATTACH]

Kayakerca, what size main shaft are you using and does your ewing machine motor have any problem spinning them because of drag?
The reason I ask is because my 20 year old winder has a 1/2" shaft and flanged bearings with a 1-1/8" OD.
Over the last 20+ years I've replaced the flanged bearings at least 4 times and they're getting noisy again and the holes that the bearings fit in are getting tired as well.

The original set from 20 years ago were USA made and they did last quite a while but like everything else, unless I want to spend $50 on USA made bearings they wont last and the less expensive flanged bearings are Asian. Plus the pillow block bearings should last a while since they're meant for equipment that take much more abuse than my pickup winder.

I found some pillow block bearings on eBay for a decent price but my concern is their size and how tight they are and whether or not my sewing machine motor will have any problem spinning them depending upon how much tighter they are compared to the little flanged bearings.

Here is a pic of both types of bearings. The flanged bearings spin very easily but even with perfect alignment they don't last long so I'd really like to have the pillow block bearings since they should last quite a while longer than the cheap flanged bearings.

Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks.
My current flanged style 1/2" ID bearings.

1/2" ID Pillow block bearings.

[kayakerca]

Kayakerca, what size main shaft are you using and does your ewing machine motor have any problem spinning them because of drag?
The reason I ask is because my 20 year old winder has a 1/2" shaft and flanged bearings with a 1-1/8" OD.
Over the last 20+ years I've replaced the flanged bearings at least 4 times and they're getting noisy again and the holes that the bearings fit in are getting tired as well.

The original set from 20 years ago were USA made and they did last quite a while but like everything else, unless I want to spend $50 on USA made bearings they wont last and the less expensive flanged bearings are Asian. Plus the pillow block bearings should last a while since they're meant for equipment that take much more abuse than my pickup winder.

I found some pillow block bearings on eBay for a decent price but my concern is their size and how tight they are and whether or not my sewing machine motor will have any problem spinning them depending upon how much tighter they are compared to the little flanged bearings.

Here is a pic of both types of bearings. The flanged bearings spin very easily but even with perfect alignment they don't last long so I'd really like to have the pillow block bearings since they should last quite a while longer than the cheap flanged bearings.

Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks.
My current flanged style 1/2" ID bearings. [ATTACH=CONFIG]21357[/ATTACH]

1/2" ID Pillow block bearings. [ATTACH=CONFIG]21356[/ATTACH]

I went with a 5/8" bronze bearing bench mandrel from Grizzly. In hindsight, I should have gone to the 5/8" pillow block bearings right out of the gate. I later picked up a set which I will swap in at some point when the brass bearings wear out. In my opinion, pickup winders create a very minimal load relative to what the mandrels are built to handle.

[Stratz]

I went with a 5/8" bronze bearing bench mandrel from Grizzly. In hindsight, I should have gone to the 5/8" pillow block bearings right out of the gate. I later picked up a set which I will swap in at some point when the brass bearings wear out. In my opinion, pickup winders create a very minimal load relative to what the mandrels are built to handle.

Thanks Jim. I'm not sure if I understand your reply.

Do the pillow block bearings that you bought spin easily by hand seeing that they're such a large size?
Do you think that they might put too much of a load on these little sewing machine motors?

I haven't had one that size in my hand in many years so I really don't recall if the larger size is harder to spin than the little flanged bearings that I've been using.

I just didn't want to buy a set if they're going to put a lot of extra drag on my old 1950's motor.

Thanks.

[kayakerca]

Thanks Jim. I'm not sure if I understand your reply.

Do the pillow block bearings that you bought spin easily by hand seeing that they're such a large size?
Do you think that they might put too much of a load on these little sewing machine motors?

I haven't had one that size in my hand in many years so I really don't recall if the larger size is harder to spin than the little flanged bearings that I've been using.

I just didn't want to buy a set if they're going to put a lot of extra drag on my old 1950's motor.

Thanks.

Sorry Stratz. I am still using the bonze bearing bench mandrel setup (which is no bearings at all, just the bronze sleeve). I have the others, but I won't put them on until the current bronze bearings become sloppy, so I don't know how they will work at this point. All I can say is that the 2 sewing machine motors I use on my winder are easily powerful enough to deal with the 5/8" shaft bench mandrel.

[Stratz]

Ok Jim, thanks.
I was just curious if the pillow block bearings that you have turned very easily by hand. That would have given me an idea as to how they would act on the winder. The ones I was looking at are only $16 so I'll just buy them and hope fore the best.

Thanks.