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  • Ceramic vs. Ceramic

    I've been reading online discussions of audio electronics for years, and one of the truisms I've read over and over again is: ceramic capacitors are BAD and should be avoided.

    It brings to mind a conversation I heard a few months ago where it was mentioned that you rarely hear people say that they hate dogs. I brought up the fact that you do hear people say that they either love or hate certain breeds of dogs chihuahuas--or pit bulls, etc....

    In that context, I always wonder why so many people seem to be unable to distinguish between the different types of ceramic capacitors.

    For example, Class 1 ceramics, variously described as C0G, NP0, etc... (a zero, not n 'O')

    1) Are extremely stable with temperature (i.e., zero value change)
    2) Suffer little to no aging effects
    3) Do not exhibit changing capacitance with applied voltage
    4) Are not piezoelectric (any more than any capacitor)
    5) Are second only to polystyrene in terms of distortion at audio frequencies
    6) Are similar to silver mica in almost every way--except that they cost about 1/20th as much

    The rebuttal to this has usually been, "Yes, but they are only available in values of 100pf and less." That used to be true, but check your parts catalogs, and you'll find them in much larger values, due in part to multilayer construction.

    Class II ceramics like X7R and Z5U have fundamentally different dielectrics. They are "doped" with things like barium titanate to achieve greater capacitance in a smaller package, and they are responsible for the bad reputation of ceramic caps in audio. They do exhibit variations in capacitance and DF with applied voltage and temperature. They do deteriorate with age, even if not used. They can be piezoelectric (due to the doping materials). They do produce measurable distortion at audio frequencies. And I'm not making this up; most of this is information you can find on the datasheets published by the companies that manufacture these capacitors.

    If you do a search on this forum on the word 'ceramic,' you'll easily find 100 threads--I'm not sure if that's the search limit--mentioning ceramic capacitors. Search for C0G or NP0, and you find three, all of which appeared within the last two years.

    All I'm suggesting is that it could be useful to learn to distinguish between the different types, especially if you need a stable, small capacitance value near a hot tube--or if you want to replace some Z5Us or X7Rs at a lower cost than mica.

    Still, I have a client with a Supro amp full of Z5U ceramics, and he loves it. I guess 30 wrongs do somehow make a right ;-)

  • #2
    Very interesting info, thanks.
    For what it's worth, I use ceramics *everywhere* , unless the circuit has some specific need which they can't cover.
    Using expensive parts, just by itself, doesn't make any amplifier *sound* better (or bluesier/Claptonier/holier/whatever "ier").
    If anything, that may impact on durability or repeatability (consistency).
    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    • #3
      Where I work, we use mostly ceramic caps everywhere we can to avoid electrolytic caps for the reasons you outlined.
      Our primary product is a control system used on aircraft that are in turn used in fire fighting. ( Trotter Controls)
      With values from 47uF to .1uF 6.3 to 50V we have been able to get ride of almost all electrolytic caps in our designs.

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      • #4
        All I can say is
        WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        Impressive stuff !!
        Juan Manuel Fahey

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        • #5
          I've played with temp. compensating, swapping for non-, and I would be careful to assume one is necessarily better than the other in all cases (I have lots of non-, which is mostly multilayer obtained surplus--probably a reflection of the times--values up to 47nF). Sometimes that extra distortion from the non-temp. compensating might be what you want, or what makes something sound the way it does. (This is just "my ear", but) I think they will work "better" than non- when you want something cleaner (sounding) and vice a versa when you want more coloration(change). I've tried replacing most of the smaller value caps in a channel of my old Tascam 488mkII mixer section (even a couple 15nF in the EQ since I happened to have that value) for temp. compensating, and while it didn't make it into a Neve, it was kind of interesting.

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          • #6
            don't forget their vanishingly small ESR too!


            Now lets start to rehabilitate the audio image of ....tantalum!

            if they are awesome as resistors
            audio note tantalum resistor page
            surely they are AOK as caps...

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            • #7
              Does the NP0 and C0G come in .01/.02uf? I have a drawer full of Ceramic .01/.02uf and they all seem to be class II.

              Did a search at Mouser and it seems all class I ceramic disks are 1000pf max. Maybe multi-layer is what goes higher in value.
              Last edited by guitician; 08-23-2010, 04:36 PM.
              Now Trending: China has found a way to turn stupidity into money!

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              • #8
                yeah they do but bigger values such as those up to now seem to have been usually expensive (looking at an older Mouser catalog) and don't have any space efficiency advantage either. I was looking on the RS components site recently though, and values such as 22nF (in surface mount) seem to be quite affordable (around 40-60 cents or so but have to buy in qtys. of 50 or whatever).

                FWIW 2012 (size) fits right in between standard size op amp pins and 3216 are about right if you stand them up(can be the most "ideal" physical placement for bypass). Tried a smaller value class 1 in parallel with the original class 2, and (since I found some 6n8 "SL" surplus cheap--which is a sort of lesser not quite as good spec wise class 1 type) trying some of those out paralleled on a mixer channel.

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                • #9
                  here are some nice 0.01uf 50v units for as little as 0.34 each (if u buy 100)
                  0.01uF 1% 50V C0G/NP0 Radial Ceramic Caps - 10 pc lots - eBay (item 270337809524 end time Aug-23-10 16:59:26 PDT)

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                  • #10
                    seems like a really good deal plus they are precision parts (1% tol.). Good for when you want a match or need absolute tolerance.

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                    • #11
                      my other (current) cap deal is this:


                      10uf/100v polypropylene films at Madisound for 0.60 each (or less in bulk)

                      They're big but great for crossovers etc.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tedmich View Post
                        don't forget their vanishingly small ESR too!


                        Now lets start to rehabilitate the audio image of ....tantalum!

                        if they are awesome as resistors
                        audio note tantalum resistor page
                        surely they are AOK as caps...
                        Neve consoles are full of tantalum caps. There's rules to using them effectively and they do have some really stupid failure modes, but there's good reason to use them in audio.
                        My rants, products, services and incoherent babblings on my blog.

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                        • #13
                          Sorry for digging this old thread out but did I get this right ? :

                          Are you (the engineers) saying it does not matter audio wise from what material a capacitor is made of ?
                          No difference between polypropylene, polyester, metallized or not, mica or ceramic .....it just does not matter sound wise ?

                          If so, you guys would do it like this if you would have to design an guitar amp from scratch and had to buy capacitors for coupling and tone control:

                          1. Look at the idle DC voltage the PT can produce with no tubes in the amplifier (say it is 445V).
                          2. Add a safety margin to that. Say 20% so we end up with about 540V. All coupling caps should be rated for at least 540V than. 600V caps will do.
                          3. Provided the physical size and dimensions do not matter - we shop for caps with the required value (22nF,100nF..) which are rated for at least 540V and cost the least money. We just do not care for the dielectric material and all that as long the caps are film caps or ceramic C0G, NP0s.

                          We just smile and go our way when people are talking about different types of orange drops, mallorys, silver mica, SOZO and how different they might be and which of them sound better to the talking guy.

                          I kind of like that idea but I am not sure if this is what you guys meant to say.

                          Tilman
                          Last edited by Tilman; 10-02-2010, 08:26 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Yes. That's probably how Leo Fender did it, and how Marshall and Peavey do it right now.

                            (Flameproof hat on.)

                            I was reading a Bob Pease article on capacitors the other day, and he says that Mylar (polyester) ones have a poor temperature coefficient. From somewhere else I saw it was 10% over the range -55 to +125'C. But that's probably only like a 5% variation over the range of temperatures you'd find inside an amp.
                            "Enzo, I see that you replied parasitic oscillations. Is that a hypothesis? Or is that your amazing metal band I should check out?"

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                            • #15
                              I believe Leo did it this way. From what I know he was a business man. Same goes for Jim Marshall and many others.

                              The little problem I have with this concept is that (capacitor wise) a chinese made amplifier, trimmed for lowest costs possible, would play in the same "quality league" as any boutique amplifier. Again - capacitor wise.

                              All the SOZOs of this world are than just talking the usual marketing BS. OK.

                              Bottom line for me is :

                              The sound of an amplifier comes from many things (circuit design, tubes, OT, speaker) but NOT from coupling and tone capacitors (if rated for the environment they are in and provided they fulfill reasonable quality standards).
                              Good news!
                              Last edited by Tilman; 10-02-2010, 08:43 PM.

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