Cu vs steel parts leads: fantasy audiophoolery or overlooked (problematic) reality?

[dai h.]

Just wondering what opinions were on copper vs. copper plated steel component leads, since I've read here and there bits such as, "don't use the steel leaded version of OS cons for audio", or (something about) "hysterisis distortion", or old micas with copper leads being better than new ones with plated steel and suchlike. If the layout is already "good" in a device, that is, if things that might interact in a detrimental fashion are already well placed, distanced, shielded, etc. would steel (I'm assuming magnetism is the problem) leads even matter? And why is it done? A cost and strength issue (i.e. copper more expensive, and steel helping to provide more mechanical integrity for general lead to body strength and use in automatic parts insertion machines)?

[jrfrond]

Methinks you are worrying too much about your component leads. Somehow, you never struck me as the audiophile type.

The majority of component leads I've seen in the last decade or so are plated steel. Never had an issue.

Just for the record, I did two years as the factory service tech for Tandberg back in late 80's, and audiophiles have "trained" themselves to "hear" anything. Most of it is placebo effect. This is not aimed at you, just a general observance.

[Jazz P Bass]

Just curious, mind you.
WITW is "hysterisis distortion"?
And what could it possibly have to do with a guitar amp?

[dai h.]

Thanks.

I'm not really worried or anything, just curious if there was any solid rationale behind the idea (that copper leads are "better", more suitable or whatever).

re: "hysteresis distortion"(oops sry, wrong spelling), that was just something I read from some newsgroup or bbs somewhere.

Is the overall idea magnetism of leads, part ends, etc. making them more liable to induction (unwanted outside influence--possibly as signal levels go louder)?

Some of the sources are from people I don't particularly consider to be in the "audiophool", so while I don't think I've experienced anything personally, just wondered if maybe it was "real but subtle" or whatever.

Oh, and sometimes when cutting, forming part leads for PCBs, etc. I'd notice some leads would stick to my pliers and some wouldn't. So a combination of things like that and comments/observations I've read leading to curiosity.

[jrfrond]

When it comes down to it, copper-plated steel is cheaper than pure copper.

[Enzo]

"Assuming magnetism is the problem."


No, assuming there is a problem is the problem. As so often happens in the tweaky world of hifi, someone becomes aware of something and then feels obligated to rationalize some effect it "must" have.

[J M Fahey]

Wow Enzo!!
Welcome back, friend.

[sgelectric]

Welcome back Enzo.You've been missed.

[km6xz]

Welcome back Enzo!

When claims are made about "must-have" in tweaky hi-fi, the first question to ask yourself in evaluating the varacity of the claim is "who is making money if I believe this?" and second is "do I have to overturn the entire framework of physics in order for this claim to be true?"
If passing this simple test questions, it is possibly something to explore. Otherwise, let the con men have their fun, at least they are creative if not truthful or knowledgeable. I've designed hi-fi gear that is still in production today and getting between $5,500 and $20,000 a channel with the manufacturer securing rave reviews.....and all of it bogus. The amps were designed to use the major parts that the maker already ordered...chassis, transformers, oil caps etc, and is OK, none are great. Buyers think they are getting magic when in fact they are getting a decent $500 amp with $2000 of nice metal work. The same manufacture came to me to write a detailed explanation of why his new cable....interconnects...were revolutionary and worth the $2,800 a meter. I wrote on the napkin in the diner he took me to "B.S.". The cables sell decently but the ad and review copy sounds like a reversal of the laws of physics. The whole industry is like that, hucksters finding willing participants in their own fleecing. I've conducted double blind tests on cable, amps, preamps and gadgets like a relabeled Micronta(Radio Shack) digital desk clock that was being tauted as being able to phase align the AC mains just by plugging it into any outlet in the listening room. A "serious" review magazine asked for an explanation of how it worked. I told them, before seeing it, that it did not work. He wanted me to prove that it didn't. I did, he still published a positive review for the $500 device but did include the disclaimer that one "reviewer" could not be sure he heard the difference.
Hi-Fi today is pretty much like Homeopathy, so absurd that no one serious would bother researching it, but millions of people spend millions of $$ a year on these fake medications. At least with hi-fi, no one gets sick on dies if a conman gets a hold of a well heeled willing victim.

Follow the money. Notice how flim-flams only focus on people who have more money than sense? Real science and engineering does not.

[Steve Conner]

Yay, welcome back Enzo!

I think there are some applications where the components have to have solid copper leads. Like snubber capacitors rated to handle tens of amps of RF. Steel leads would induction heat themselves red hot, besides about doubling the ESR figure. Of course no guitar amp circuit would get anywhere near this edge of a capacitor's envelope.

Also, diodes like the 1N5408 benefit from heavy gauge copper leads, they are bonded straight to the silicon chip and act as heatsinks. Steel has much worse thermal conductivity.

I believe the steel leads are mostly used on resistors. A bit of extra heating and ESR doesn't really matter in a device that already has resistance and gets hot.

[Alex R]

"Hysterisis distortion" :-) . Googling this term produces a ripe crop indeed.

[dai h.]

To be clear I don't (or least I think I don't) buy too much into a lot of audiophile notions. Where I'm at in my thinking is that the main expense should be more in the design, than thinking that just because there are individually expensive components things will turn out superior.

Steve thanks, I had the (slight) notion of copper making a good heatsink, so I guess what you relate ties in with that.

Did do a bit more websearching and apparently cost and strength are two issues why steel (or "CCS"(copper-clad steel) seems to be a more accurate description) is used. Helps prevent theft (CCS is less valuable to thieves). Copper prices fluctuate and can be expensive, so the less used the less cost, more stable. Different amounts of copper in the CCS can be used for different levels of conductivity.

re: magnetic parts, for some special apps, seemed to be an issue (MRI machine IIRC). For audio, some component companies sometimes recommend to use a copper leaded cap, so whether that is just marketing, not sure. The supposed reason to not use magnetic parts is some sort of magnetic distortion. Whether that's simply untrue or some grain of truth valid for certain apps/situations stretched ten-thousand to make something appear to matter, not certain there either.

p.s. yes, it's good to see you well again "Enzo (Claus)"!

[Alex R]

It is great to have Enzo back :-)... but hey he lost 60 pounds so maybe it's not so much Enzo Claus as the Reverend Enzo Gibbons?

[J M Fahey]

"Hysterisis distortion"

Ah !! .... but it *does* exist !!
It only happens to girls, though

As of the Electronics world we live in, let's see the Trademarks of products that claim to be Hysterisis Distortion free:
* Epos Acoustics
* Audio Ultima
* VAC Renaissance Series 300B Triode Tube Amplifiers
* Kimber BiFocal (claims "Sound Stage" improvement)
* Kimber Power Kord " " " "
* Adire Extremis MT
* Exodus Anarchy
Great Trademarks !!! Very creative marketing dept.
I would not have come out with such cool trademarks in a million years !!
While I am writing this, the Discovery Channel program I was listening to ended, and the Slender Shaper infomercial started blaring through my TV speakers.
Coincidence or Karma?
We live in Snake Oil world.

[Steve Conner]

If hysteresis distortion is bad, why do audiophiles insist on tube amps? The output transformer is a big lump of iron that has easily measurable hysteresis, overwhelming any component leads. The most effective cure would be to get a solid-state amp.

I like to tell them that triodes have "electrostatic feedback", it sounds awfully bad.