Spending money on parts

[Enzo]

Ah geez, I try to keep a good stock of parts, and a good selection, but...

Rebuilding a Bassman 250, which has a power amp of the same general topology as that FM212R we discussed at length a while back. Overly complicated. I think I have it daignosed, but there are some pretty specific semiconductors in it, that I don't have. SOme MPSW42/92 types that have to be in thermal contact with each other, and they are in the 1 watt TO92, some shottky diode, a couple other diodes, some small zeners I was out of particular values. Even buying 25-100 of each thing I still came in under $20. But it is wednesday AM, and I need this amp ready for saturday pickup by out of towner.

I looked at next day saver, but that was still $40. So I went for cheap, figured 2nd day still gets them to me friday, which should work out. And "only" $18.

I hate it when the shipping costs more than the parts.

[jrfrond]

Yeah, that does suck. That's one of the reasons that we've always had rush fees in our shop. The primary reason is to cover any rush shipping that might occur, as well as some profit from buying ones' way to the front of the line.

You don't have to do that, but considering how shipping costs have skyrocketed, there's no reason why you should charge the customer back for rush shipping on parts. No matter how much you stock (and this shop living proof, because we have tens of thousands of stocked part numbers in our database), you just cannot stock everything you'll ever need, so this situation is always going to happen. It's either that, or figure it into your hourly rate charge. One way or the other, don't eat it.

[Techknowman]

When I can get to it $25 minimum base + time & parts.
When you want me to get to it $50 minimum base + time (parts cost + shipping X 2)
I usually never buy "just what i need" I always add extra so i'll have some stock and throw in a few things like caps or resistors i'm low on or don't have yet. this way I don't feel like i'm paying way too much for shipping.
The year and a half i have been doing this, my stock has grown.

[Bill Moore]

I also charge for shipping, (I also pad a little time for a front of the line pass).

[Chuck H]

+1
Prototyping on a crunch for the 2009 NAMM show was a very clear demonstration of this principal. I had to design and build a pair of working amp chassis and contract the cabinets to complete assembly in six weeks. So I did have to order several things "overnight" or at best "two day" to complete the project... Which I did. The toughest thing for me was paying the extra charges knowing I wouldn't recieve the service. I am on an island in the PNW and ALL shipping takes one day longer than the indicated expediance. I currently have some projects breathing down my neck and I have put off ordering parts until I have enough of an order for other projects to justify the shipping cost.

Minimum shipping at Mouser is something like US $10.00+change. If all you need is a special switch that costs $4.50 it IS very irksome.

[jrfrond]

At the shop level, it's different than doing contract work in some ways. For contract jobs or estimates, I always overestimate to cover our asses. For the average walk-in customer, we have policies and rules, and they are displayed on three 24" x 36" posters on the wall behind the counter, plus on our website. We have a specific turnaround time (15-21 business days), and within that period, there is no extra cost to the customer. Below that, we have one (calendar) week. and Overnight/Same Day rush service. Now, if a specific tech is not backed-up, the customer may get it back quickly, but there is no extra charge. If they demand rush service, and hence the possible increased shipping costs, then they pay up. It's that simple. EVERYONE wants it in a hurry. Not everyone NEEDS it in a hurry, and the rush charge separates the two. My M.O. in shop management is to never have hidden fees presented to the customer. As it is, most of them believe they are getting ripped-off when they walk through the door and there ARE service centers with questionable practices. Of course, people still bitch sometimes, but you can't please everyone. I make thorough use of signs and printed forms to minimize the grumblings. You will also see this approach in many large car dealership service centers.

On-the-fly policies rob customers of their sense of security. If you list everything up-front, you'll keep the customer, even if they are unsatisfied with the price. Again, you just cannot stock everything, but you shouldn't eat the cost either.

[rf7]

If I've got to order a part for someone, I charge shipping. If I order other parts with it, then I charge a percentage of the shipping.

[km6xz]

I never realized I had it made before when I had the large shop in California, shipping was very low and fast but now, any part is 10-40 days, and $60-100 shipping IF I can find a supplier who will send overseas. None of the manufacturers will except Peavey. So for now, until a parts stock is built up, needing 1, order 10 if it is for a model that I might see again. Due to the lack of factory only-parts there are no real repair shops here even with hundreds of millions in gear imports every year.
I am working on a service network that will make parts, service info and diagnostics assistance available to otherwise well trained techs around the country, all working through the same on-line WO and parts system. Parts are the big stumbling block finding well trained BSEE or MSEE grads who would love to get into this is not the problem but the parts has been. The exact opposite of the situation in the US where parts are a no-brainer but qualified techs are almost non-existent.
After contacting all the majors for parts access, and being turned down(except Peavey) and contacting a dozen shops asking if they would be willing to make regular parts shipments to us by EMS, US Postal Service (several admitting to want to phase out service all together as not being profitable anymore due to lack of tech skill) and finding no one interested, I may have to open a small one tech shop back in the US just to get the parts access to ship to me. A country with at least 1,000,000 musicians with electronic gear, someone is missing out on a great high growth opportunity. I am not crazy about getting that involved again but I am constantly looking for and seeing opportunities that are unseen by most.

[Chuck H]

A country with at least 1,000,000 musicians with electronic gear, someone is missing out on a great high growth opportunity. I am not crazy about getting that involved again but I am constantly looking for and seeing opportunities that are unseen by most.

Maybe I'm a "doubting Thomas" and that's why I don't "see" opportunities.?. But I'm not sure repairs on current production gear is a good target. Most of this stuff is made in China at a fraction of what the parts alone would cost in the US. The standard policy anymore is to simply replace defective units rather than repair them. And modern electronics are made with this criteria, often even made to prohibit service.

Not only that, but the kid that saved for three months for a $599.99 all tube 50watt head with reverb probably won't be spending even $100.00 to have it serviced. And the MFG doesn't want him/her to. Because the MFG unit cost is probably under $200.00 to begin with. They'll sooner replace an amp with a bad PT thermal fuse than manufacture and distribute PT's. Peavey has always been a real hands on company and to be honest I don't know how they've managed to keep the customer service and still be so competitive. But kudos to them. You'll never get LOUD or Korg to play ball. The formula they have is working for them. Of course that kid with the new/broken amp won't be able to reach anyone who can actually help them via any phone number or Email address associated with the MFG. The kid will need to go back to the music store where they, as a distributer will return the item as "defective" and the store will be compensated with another unit. Good luck to anyone trying to get a service industry going in the middle of that game.

Unless I misunderstood your post.?.

EDIT: I know there are some guys here, some of the best IMHE, who do service. I think they will actually understand this position... I couldn't possibly specialize in modern musical industry electronics repair because when the above mentioned guy/gal walks into my shop with a broken amp and says "Hey maaan, how much to fix it?" my answer would be something like "$50 to find out. Applied to the repair should you decide to use my services." I know the response at that point. To which I would probably say something like, "Well you shouldn't have bought a TOY amp built like a disposable novelty." Admittedly, I wouldn't make too many friends with my aspect on the matter.

[Enzo]

Ahem, a gentleman learns quickly, if he doesn't just know it instinctively, that when his woman asks if a clothing item makes her butt look too big, the proper response is, "No." Or at least, "You look great, dear." Absolutely nothing is to be gained by telling any customer he made a poor purchase choice even if he did. By telling some kid "That Line 6 piece of junk should never have been made in the first place, let alone sold," all you have succeeded in doing is telling him he is stupid. And a couple years later when he has a "real" amp needing service, he's gonna look elsewhere because he thinks we are assholes here. A kid brings me one of those god-awful cheap Gorilla amps, I am gonna fix it as best as I can, and demonstrate to the kid that his business is important to me by showing concerns for his needs.

That kid that saved three months for a $599 tube amp? $100 to fix it? What is his alternative, save another three months for another $599 amp? Or not have an amp at all for six months saving up for a $1200 amp?

Let's not confuse the intrinsic value of an amp with its street value. WHat does a PV 5150 (6505) sell for in say AUstralia? Or Russia? Or wherever. A lot more than what it sells for in the USA. Your $1000 amp becomes a $2000-$3000 amp. And those guys are not going to be chucking - er poor choice of terms - tossing that amp in the trash for want of $100 in repairs.

CHuck, I can't agree with what you are laying on the OEMs. As a warranty center, they may not want ME to repair the low end amps, because it is cheaper to replace them on their part. However, that is not the same as wanting the customer to just replace an amp. OEMs may think of amps as disposable, customers do not. Customers may often opt not to repair if the price is too high, but when someone asks me if something is "worth fixing," I ask in return, "If you like the way it worked, how much could you replace it for?" If re3pairs are $100 and a new one is $130 then a lot of people will deecline the repair. I have to think $100 repair versus $600 replacement is a different story.

To say the OEMs don't want people repairing their gear I think is misdirected. What teh OEMs want to do is sell gear, no disagreements there. And they want to sell it at certain price points. They sell $1200 amps because no matter now great and reliable some inexpensive thing might be, touring musicians won;t buy it. Yes, you generally get what you pay for, but when guys find cheap guitars they love - I seem to recall Agile guitars coming into favor a while back - those guitars don;'t take over the market. But the OEMs don;t want to sell amps the consumer thinks are disposable. How many throw-away amps will the average buyer take home before he moves on to an alternative brand? How many 15 watt Gorilla practice amp owners move up to the 50 watt Gorilla? That is why the OEMs have the replacement warranty. Even though the amp is dirt cheap, they want the consumer to have a positive view of the product line.

That replacement warranty only applies to the entry level stuff. No one is discarding SVTs or TSL100s.

Now in Russia there may be certain subtle... uh, market forces at play that don;t exist here. I have no idea, but possibly a couple tough looking dudes might saunter into your shop and "suggest" you don't be fixing things, because it eats into their sales efforts.


A couple winters ago, one of my DJ customers came in with a little control box. He also has a lawn care and snow removal service he runs. A little box with a small joystick in it controlled the plow blade. He asked if I could fix it. A quick look... Sure, needs a little microswitch. Great, he says, every time one of these breaks, we always had to buy a new one for $300, and I will tell all my snow plowing buddies. next thing I know, I have a trickle of guys wanting their little boxes repaired.

What Stan's potential is I couldn;t say, but i wouldn;t write it off.

[Alex R]

If only for this reason I'm so glad I live in the UK. RS or Farnell will ship me for nothing a 10p component, next day delivery, if I order before 8pm, and put the 10p on my monthly account. Marshall charge shipping but their trade prices are nice and low. Their parts come next day if I order before 2pm. Small overpopulated islands are sometimes nice to live on.

[Ronsonic]

By telling some kid "That Line 6 piece of junk should never have been made in the first place, let alone sold," all you have succeeded in doing is telling him he is stupid. And a couple years later when he has a "real" amp needing service, he's gonna look elsewhere because he thinks we are assholes here.

Good point, Enzo. There is another side to this, where I will have to explain a bit about price point manufacture and how the gear a guy has was tremendous bang for the buck, but now that his career depends on it ... But that is not the same as criticizing the guy for buying a POS.

[jrfrond]

Good point, Enzo. There is another side to this, where I will have to explain a bit about price point manufacture and how the gear a guy has was tremendous bang for the buck, but now that his career depends on it ... But that is not the same as criticizing the guy for buying a POS.

Kind of funny (or not), but there is a well-known service center here in the NY area whose owner is super-knowledgeable and a friend of mine to boot, but he makes no bones about telling customers they purchased a piece of sh*t. I've heard backlash about this from many a manufacturers service manager in the industry, and was actually in the same position when I was service director for Music Industries Corp. and Samson Technologies. NOT a good way to operate.

Parts are becoming a real issue nowadays, especially Class D amplification. It is coming down to whether we spend lots of time troubleshooting, or purchase the module outright, and some manufacturers are just NOT playing nice. I got a quote today for a Class D amp module of $750 for a $700 powered speaker cabinet. That's just f***in' INSANITY! However, the amp module, a Digimod 1000, is a Powersoft product, and their prices are just off the hook.

It's all becoming throwaway technology, and I hate it. Too many products today have built-in throwaway technology and planned obsolescence. Parts availability timeframe from many major manufacturers is shorter than ever. I can't tell you how many times I've shouted "What do you MEAN the part's not available? It's only two years old!!!".

[km6xz]

It is true that for most inexpensive gear, in any electronics field, is designed in ways to allow very low cost manufacture, and repair is not a priority. With product cycles getting shorter with each generation, the lower end gear is not economical to stock parts, publish manuals or support a service network that traditionally has been funded by sales. For a large portion of the buying public, price is the only critical feature. But there are also users who have other criteria and have a use for the gear so repair is of importance and being able to maintain it for years is a selling point.
Here, the economy is doing well, young people in particular have disposable income which they use for travel and personal electronics. An iPhone is $880 and very common. There are no tube guitar amps less than $1000 unless tiny practice amps. Used amps in good condition sell for more than new amps of the same model in the US, so they are not typical throwaway purchases. That is one of the several factors which suggests that a specialty service network could really take off. Large pent up unmet need, disposable income, no competition, large pool of highly educated potential employees.
I pay attention to customer trends and make plans that meet a real need that solves a problem that the customers value to have removed. If they do not value you it, the product or service might be the best in the world but it has no future or even reason to exist.
The major brands never learned about these newer markets and don't realize the slow down in sales in the west could be doubly compensated for if they paid any attention what is happening elsewhere. That is one reason a lot of these household name companies have no long term future, their market changed and they still think it is 1985. New players will come to take over so new opportunities will arise that don't exist now. Many very well known companies will just not make the cut over the next 5 years. They pay lipservice to international markets but know nothing about them or what motivates the missed potential new customer base. It is amazing to see how eager small Chinese companies are for making deals and delivering what is needed when it is needed. They do not have a customer service understanding however so parts, service info and engineering support is almost non-existent but they are capturing one market niche after another. I have been importing wireless packs that were designed around my need for thousands of guides radios, 1 transmitter and 20-40 receivers for my own use and to rent out to other tour operators. We have thousands of them, at about $45 each. We rent them to other operators for $5 per two day rental, with a 10 pack minimum. Getting a western company to work with us was useless, they were sure they knew our needs better than we did and would not do any custom programming or packaging unless orders of 10,000 at a time. 3 different Chinese companies bid on it, and we ordered some from each mostly to make sure we did not invest in a single source supplier. The answers were "yes, we can do that". Western managers say China is cheating and taking clients because of cheap low quality labor. That is why all those managers will be unemployed in a couple years. They just don't get it.
I am doing the same with vacuum tubes and having my own mods added by plants who are interested in growing with a small business so are eager to build prototypes and make changes even for small initial orders. None of the US or European brands even wanted to talk about it. That is the sort of attitude we come to expect from Soviet era businesses and all such are doomed. Svetlana for example is capable of making some good tubes but have management who do not have a clue about any of their markets, and don't care.
There are lots of opportunities if one looks.

[Chuck H]

OK, OK... I digress. You all know my peev with the rash of virtually disposable amps. Of course someone needs to fix the majority of them in the event of minor failures. And of course parts should be available. It is somewhat telling that they're not at this time. Like maybe my assesment is more accurate than we would like to admit??? And I do wish, if only for the sake of all those who DO repair these amps, that they were made more sevice friendly. Perhaps a trend in repairing them will have an affect on thier construction and parts availability...Eventually. One thing is sure. By turning a blind eye to the issue, as I have, NOTHING is going to improve or change.

Enzo, note that I said: "I couldn't possibly specialize in modern musical industry electronics repair because..." I'm not actually a face to face rude person. I probably wouldn't actually slap the sucker from a kids mouth. In fact I often surprise myself with my level of diplomacy in business. But that doesn't represent my position in this matter. I was just being expressive.