Capacitor Sound

[Steve Conner]

Rhodes, I agree and I think that was what Bateman was trying to say too. The conventional wisdom is that all of the dielectrics except ceramic are linear. They have imperfections, but those imperfections are things like soakage and dielectric loss that can be modelled by RC networks, and as such are incapable of generating harmonic distortion, just minuscule variations in frequency response, and so should be inaudible.

So, according to this argument, the capacitor distortion is most probably a result of poor build quality, basically a glorified loose connection or microphonic of some sort. So many things in audio probably have a basis in truth of some sort, just not what you think.

I'm scratching my head over an old MOSFET hi-fi amp that sounds "anemic" right now. I wonder if some of those little blue caps got into it. They weren't ceramics by any chance?

[Rhodesplyr]

I'm scratching my head over an old MOSFET hi-fi amp that sounds "anemic" right now. I wonder if some of those little blue caps got into it. They weren't ceramics by any chance?

The blue coating was epoxy, so my guess, based on size and shape, is that they were metallized polyester. They were similar in construction to some of the square green ones I see now and then.

[tedmich]

Jimmy’s Junkyard » Blog Archive » Extreme Capacitors Battle (1st Session)
Humble Homemade Hifi
Capacitors: Sonicap vs. V-Cap OIMP vs. Multicap Vs. Mundorf on 10 Audio
The Great Capacitor Shoot-Out

technology worship can be almost completely "science free"
you can pay over $1k per uF if you really want to!

[Rhodesplyr]

Jimmy’s Junkyard » Blog Archive » Extreme Capacitors Battle (1st Session)
Humble Homemade Hifi
Capacitors: Sonicap vs. V-Cap OIMP vs. Multicap Vs. Mundorf on 10 Audio
The Great Capacitor Shoot-Out

technology worship can be almost completely "science free"
you can pay over $1k per uF if you really want to!

Yes, the price of admission to that particular club was always too high for me, especially with my Scottish ancestry. (I'd wager Steve knows the stereotype I'm invoking.) If I were suspicious, I might start to wonder who's behind these shoot-outs. Boutique capacitor sellers, perhaps?

I used to read the Audio Asylum website before I learned enough to know better.

[tedmich]

Wired magazine reads like this to me; total brainless consumption with little or no critical thinking skills. Tech doesn't mean understanding.

[km6xz]

Boy, if those guys ever learn how those recordings were made in the first place the talk of "expanding the sound stage" or "accurate placement/depth" would sound pretty embarrassing. Do they know how many electrolytic s and TLo71's or 5532's or $0.25 a foot(and 400 total feet of it) cable that "pristine" signal went through do get on that recording, or how there was no placement in the studio, just panning and slight delays added.

[Steve Conner]

No, no, they don't listen to actual music on these setups. They have audiophile grade recordings made with two fancy tube mics and a reel to reel tape machine. You can get such things from sources like hdtracks.com or the Linn online store if you're curious. (No audiophile household is complete without a 24 bit/88.2k download of Mahler's 2nd conducted by Tillson-Thomas etc etc.)

One cliche beloved of hi-fi journalists is the system so "accurate" that it made some of their recordings unlistenable by exposing "defects" in them. I have to wonder whether that is a selling point. Most recordings probably have good musical content but so-so production (Stan's proverbial 100 TL072s, any radio show slammed through an Optimod) and I'd much rather have a system that took all of this in its stride. Luckily according to my theory of audio, this is actually a lot easier than making Mahler's dismal dirges listenable.

On a related note, I have one pop CD that begins with a vocal panned centre with major treble boost and sibilance. I guess it's one of those "enhancer" type effects. It's not a particularly nice piece of production, but I think it is quite demanding of amps. Any crossover distortion makes it sound painful, and if the two channels are biased different, or one is a bit poorly, the sibilants will seem to come from a different place in the soundstage than the rest of the vocal. It's in my test suite for hi-fi gear that I get for repair.

[km6xz]

I might have sounded clueless by that comment but that exact situation has come up in the many a/b test scenarios I've been involved with. As far as fancy tube mics and high end reel to reel, that was standard fare in all major studios. I had a collection of just under 100 mics that are now considered collector items, both tube and ribbon plus hundreds of less mics. For any particular song, a wide variety of mics would be used, some incredibly cheap and low end but just worked for the song. At the time they were just tools. The most used mic in a studio is still the SM-57.
I had a contract to design the first digital FM tuner in the 70s with a company that made speakers. I shared an office with Nelson Pass who was developing the speaker hf driver, called the Air Motion Transformer so we spent a lot of time listening with engineering minds while the upper management were humanities college professors who only cared about their subjective opinion in evaluations. The only test record suitable it seemed, that regularly got worn out from playing was contact mic recordings of Flamenco dance performances. They also wore out a lot of Sheffield discs but the source made no difference, we played tricks on them a lot, mainly to get our way in design finals, what worked best, also could get the seal of approval of the suits by minor adjustments of position or level that swamped all major changes in subjective tests. After that I spent a lot of time doing test in my own studio debunking golden-ears claims when they could not identify even not too subtle changes unless given cues. A hint was enough to swing their opinions in wild swings. The problem with most test setups is that they are not really double blind at all. There was no secret in any of them that the listeners were expected to hear differences, and did when the only difference was the introduction of a slight -40db pop in a system that had no other amplifier or preamp in the circuit to switch to. When listening "cold" with nothing else to compare with, and no expectation of being on the spot to come up with differences, subjective listening tests are laughably unreliable. The cable tests, you know, the $3500 IEC power cord tests are off the wall loony unless done with proper testing technique, in which case a lot of golden ears have been fully exposed. To understand subjective testing, understanding human perception is more important than electronics or music because that is where the tricksters operate.

[tedmich]

BybeeTech - Quantum Purification

there is no down side to raised subjective expectations; humans are built to fool themselves

[soundguruman]

Here is a link to a very informative group of articles written by a capacitor designer.
He covers the distortion that capacitors create, the test equipment that he "hand built" to facilitate the tests and an overall coverage of each type of capacitor.
Link: Capacitor Sound
Enjoy.

I think you should try Black Gate capacitors.

[km6xz]

Those were some specifically mentioned as not living up to their hype. Besides, they were shut down in 2006 so any remaining stock have probably deteriorated. They are selling for more now than new due to their lack of availability and mythology rather than any technical characteristic. Most on the market now are counterfeit.

The really small high end small boutique companies traditionally are seldom a suitable alternative to the mass produced caps like the Black Gate(actually made by Rubycon, the well known mass producer of caps, using their same high volume production lines....which was a good thing), due to high prices and low production consistency compared to large manufacturers with real QC engineers and significant production sophistication. If someone is hearing a audible difference between tweaky caps and production caps, there is something else going on the circuit to explain it in a guitar amp. Expensive magic mojo parts can never overcome bad circuit designs, where good sounds go to die. I have yet to find ANY high end esoteric parts that tested or performed better overall than decent production parts. The higher the price above industry average the lower the likelihood of proper engineering and controls in production.

[soundguruman]

I think that just reading the Black Gate information (extensive) will teach a lot about distortion in audio circuits. There are still quite a bunch of black gates to be purchased. There are also plenty of oil filled, etc. and silver mica available.
There are also bulk metal foil resistors info that is worth checking out, the new technology used in the resistors makes lower noise higher gain circuits an affordable commodity, as never before affordable. These resistors blow away the old school designs.

I think that I can hear a substantial improvement when an audio circuit is constructed with higher quality parts. Not the difference between defective and working. But rather, a sonic difference. The sound is more pleasing to my ears.
And I would not expect anyone but an experienced guitar player to notice that difference in a guitar amplifier... But there is no shortage of certain non guitar individuals who can also hear the difference rather easily, in a guitar or Hi Fi amp.

[J M Fahey]

Do you have a few leftover ones you want to sell?
From the Black Gate page:

Black Gate capacitors base their manufacture on something called 'The Transcendent Electron Transfer' theory.

Sure, Master.
OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

the frequency response is said to tend to shift around greatly during this period, making the equipment sound different from one audition to another. Once completely 'burnt-in' however, the benefits are said to be heard clearly.

Well, "stability" is just a "petit burgeois" value, despicable
So wildly drifting parts are to be preferred?
Ok, ok, continue talking.

The Black Gate production has stopped in 2006, said to be caused by problems between Jelmax Co.,Ltd. and Rubycon Corp

So Black Gate were just relabelled Rubycons?
My Mojo heart is broken !!!
Although I trust experienced Rubycon about 10000 times more than Caps made in the Himalaya by Tibetan Monks, any day of the week. (which is what calling them Transcendent implies)

[soundguruman]

"So Black Gate were just relabelled Rubycons?
My Mojo heart is broken !!!
Although I trust experienced Rubycon about 10000 times more than Caps made in the Himalaya by Tibetan Monks, any day of the week".

Actually the construction is different from other capacitors, the shelf and use life is greatly increased, and the esr is decreased in long term operation.
besides having lower distortion, and a much higher price, these are not normal Rubicons.
Although I have found some very nice Rubicons also.
Greetings to his Holiness, the Dalai Lama. Free Tibet...

[tedmich]

"So Black Gate were just relabelled Rubycons?
My Mojo heart is broken !!!

SoZo caps are still made by monks! And remember you MUST let them have a +100h break-in period before judging them!
http://www.sozoamplification.com/break_in.html
Ideally by running this signal through them at MAX volume
http://www.hagtech.com/media/frybaby.mp3 (Hagtech's Frybaby, you have been warned!)
(long weekend and deaf neighbors help!)

Never listen to to your SoZo's while looking at the cashed check or receipt!