Spirit Folio F1 14/2 HELP PLEASE.

[Steve Conner]

Oh, well I guess you're not really supposed to do that, but hopefully it shouldn't cause any damage, after all a laptop headphone jack can only put out a volt or two.

The "molesting" I referred to was taking it apart and poking the board and talking about failed voltage regulators and so on. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. My old M12 would have done the same if you used a stereo 1/8" to 1/4" adapter to plug a stereo source into one of the mono channels.

[AllergyBeats]

Let you guess? Well you guessed wrong thanks. Ive been using it for months this way and its been absolutely fine.

[AllergyBeats]

Thanks G-one. I have sourced the problem now. And I never used the inserts up until the mixer went faulty. Thanks again.

[AllergyBeats]

Oh and after a bit of advice from individuals above that are capable of NOT being complete cocky little wankers, I already tried splitting the stereo into two monos and panning two channels, with no effect, so cheers einstein

[AllergyBeats]

No damage would be cause by this even though you may find some individuals that may tell you it will. Kind reagrds for your concern.

[Steve Conner]

Well, I'm sorry for suggesting that you didn't know how to hook up a mixer, but still, something just doesn't seem right. I can't see how a duff voltage regulator would give the symptoms you're talking about. It would give distorted sound or none at all.

If you already tried the things you mentioned, then I take that back, the problem isn't what I thought, and I have no idea what it is. But I'd still be surprised if it was a problem with the power supply.

[AllergyBeats]

Let me guess. You're plugging a stereo source into a mono TRS balanced input, and you wonder why you're getting that out of phase sound?

The result is exactly what Brad1 explained, the mixer produces the difference between left and right channels.

I suggest you try a splitter cable that adapts your Mac's stereo jack to two mono ones, before molesting your poor mixer's innards any further.

Since you deleted a whole paragraph instead of the one or two words in concern, I'll write it again.

As a fully qualified electrician and PLC and control panel engineer, I'm more than capable of carrying out ANY work on my mixer and do not require your unintelligent arrogance, so my mixer is getting 'molested' in more than capable hands! Funny how apart from the arrogance all you've offered is either false infomation or infomation that's already been given!

Oh wow, I already acknowledged that Brad1 was correct. So you purpose of posting here? Still questioning it.

[AllergyBeats]

Well, I'm sorry for suggesting that you didn't know how to hook up a mixer, but still, something just doesn't seem right. I can't see how a duff voltage regulator would give the symptoms you're talking about. It would give distorted sound or none at all.

If you already tried the things you mentioned, then I take that back, the problem isn't what I thought, and I have no idea what it is. But I'd still be surprised if it was a problem with the power supply.

Then suprised you are. One voltage regulator supplies the amps on the PFL and MIX side and one supplies the sens, guess which ones gone kaput

This infomation has been checked and checked again through a detailed circuit diagram and not that of the schematic on the user guide.

[AllergyBeats]

Then suprised you are. One voltage regulator supplies the amps on the PFL and MIX side and one supplies the sens, guess which ones gone kaput

This infomation has been checked and checked again through a detailed circuit diagram and not that of the schematic on the user guide.

Oh dear, i've made MYSELF look silly here.. Reading over my diagram again It's now clear to me why whats happening is happening.

The two voltage regulators supply +15v and -15v. For any amp chip to work it needs both, in this case it only has the +15v. Thus only powering half of the amp which in turn is where the difference in L and R is occuring.

There is your explanation Steve.

[g1]

Let's take a few deep breaths here and step back for a moment. People are trying to help. Frustration is setting in. Part of that frustration is due to your apparent refusal to try a different cable set up. This may not be the case but it seems that way.
You want to use a stereo signal. You must use a stereo channel for that. You will need an insert cable (y cable stereo to 2 mono).
Running a stereo signal into a mono balanced TRS input will cause the exact problem you are describing. You have proven that the mixer is not at fault, you're just not seeing that. The drop out of the bottom end only occurs when you are panned to the middle. It is a mono channel.
The faulty regulator explains why your meters are acting funny with no signal. My guess is that large signals will also be distorted. However, you said yourself that "For any amp chip to work it needs both, in this case it only has the +15v". This would apply to ANY chip whether in the left or right, so you can not follow that up by saying "Thus only powering half of the amp which in turn is where the difference in L and R is occuring". There is no logic in that.
Once you get the regulator problem fixed, you should still get the same phase cancellation from any mono channel. If you want to use a stereo signal you must use either a stereo channel, or 2 mono channels, one panned left and the other panned right.
You are locked in to the idea it worked before. Maybe only one side of the cable was working before, or you weren't panned to the middle, I don't know. But if it did work like that before it shouldn't have.
Just to be 100% clear, are you running a stereo 1/4 plug (TRS) into a single mono channel?

[AllergyBeats]

Let's take a few deep breaths here and step back for a moment. People are trying to help. Frustration is setting in. Part of that frustration is due to your apparent refusal to try a different cable set up. This may not be the case but it seems that way.
You want to use a stereo signal. You must use a stereo channel for that. You will need an insert cable (y cable stereo to 2 mono).
Running a stereo signal into a mono balanced TRS input will cause the exact problem you are describing. You have proven that the mixer is not at fault, you're just not seeing that. The drop out of the bottom end only occurs when you are panned to the middle. It is a mono channel.
The faulty regulator explains why your meters are acting funny with no signal. My guess is that large signals will also be distorted. However, you said yourself that "For any amp chip to work it needs both, in this case it only has the +15v". This would apply to ANY chip whether in the left or right, so you can not follow that up by saying "Thus only powering half of the amp which in turn is where the difference in L and R is occuring". There is no logic in that.
Once you get the regulator problem fixed, you should still get the same phase cancellation from any mono channel. If you want to use a stereo signal you must use either a stereo channel, or 2 mono channels, one panned left and the other panned right.
You are locked in to the idea it worked before. Maybe only one side of the cable was working before, or you weren't panned to the middle, I don't know. But if it did work like that before it shouldn't have.
Just to be 100% clear, are you running a stereo 1/4 plug (TRS) into a single mono channel?

Right, let me take a deep breathe. As a qualified electrician do you not think the first thing I tried was different leads?!

Right, lets assume I am completely wrong, now you explain to me for the three months that I have used the mixer in the way I have described, without problem, if the problem if the leads I am using (not saying the leads are faulty, that the set up of leads is incorrect) how could that of worked for 3 month?! Then last week I experienced the problem for a short few minutes, then it rectified itself, now it has gone altogether. Sounds like an electrical component dropping out to me? But what could I possibly know about any of that. My computer was always set to 0 balance, my production software, heyyyyy, was always set to 0 balance, the pans on the mixer itself, guess where they were? 0 balance.

Right, you obviously are not reading what I am writting correctly. I did not state that the meters have no signal, I wont even repeat what I wrote......

Ok next, "for any amp chip to work", allow me to rephrase this, "for any amp chip to function correctly"......! The +15v and -15v that are two of the three power cables, the third being 0v. for the +15v side of the amplifier to function, guess what it needs, +15v and 0v. Guess what its got? +15v and 0v. Do not sit here and tell me, "Theres no logic in that", I quite obviously did not explain myself in simple enough terms.

Yet again im forced to say, 'As i stated above'... I have already sat here and made my own stereo to mono splitter, with single core cable, hell its not pretty, BUT ITS A STEREO TO MONO SPLITTER and guess what, ITS DOESN'T WORK... ! I am sorry to appear to be disregarding infomation and peoples generosity here, but if you was try take someones advice and try something without success of it working, are you going to take action on more of the same advice?! No!

"I am proving the mixer is not at fault". Well I put it to you sir, that you quite obviously have never come across this problem and are too stubborn to even consider it!

You was only too kind to inform me of your frustration setting in. If you do not want to post here, don't. I would love to write a paragraph on the matter, but it's as simple as that! After all, it's my mixer not yours, whether the problem gets rectified is not really your concern, or is it?

An this shall be the last time I say im not repeating infomation i've already provided, it's not like this is a verbal conversation and you've forgotten, it's clear is her majesties English above.

I want to state that I am grateful for peoples time and knowledge, I do not want to come across as disregarding, however, if I have tried certain things with no sucess, then I am going to disregard them. Maybe, something you need to consider is, that what Brad1 explained to be the problem, I have taken as something else and maybe, the problem I am experiencing is much like the cancellation Brad1 is talking about, but isn't.

I am sat here in front of the mixer, as I have been for the past two days and I am telling you kind sir, the problem is not the lead configuration I am using, I shall prove the computers balance was not off center by saying I always unplugged the stereo jack from the mac and inserted it into my ipod dock and phone, both of which were working wonderfully for 3 months.

If you are getting frustrated, please save yourself the frustration.


In addition to everything I have written here, I would like to state I have just soldered up another lead for test purposes, which is a 3.5mm stereo jack to two 6.3mm jacks, I have inserted the 6.3s into the L and R inputs of channel 9 and 10 (blue faders). The problem remains, see I took your advice and acted upon it, the problem did not rectify itself.

Maybe, the regulator isn't causing this problem, but I think it is. When I replace the regulator, if that has no effect on the problem, believe me I am not too stubborn and proud to come back here and state so. Whatever the outcome of replacing the regulator, I WILL state it here.

[Brad1]

AllergyBeats....

Just a few more observations.

I'll trust that you know the -15 regulator is shot. The confusion to all is possibly that we're not sure exactly what that regulator is going to. Is it a system-wide source, or relegated only to shared components at some stage? I have the PDF file up, and it has a block diagram, but no schematics...so I can't tell. (There is no schematic within that file.)

Do you have independent, pan-able full-signal level coming from all the mixer outputs from the main mix section..."Mix" L &R, and L/R "Phones-Monitors"? Or, is it just either Left channel, or Right channel?

The confusion to me is the question I raised first, about the problem not being present if you plug into the Inserts. The only things that is bypassing are the Input Trim (Sens) and High-Pass Filter. Otherwise, everything else is exactly the same...going through the EQs, fader and pan, on to the Main mix. Since none of those mono channels care if you are feeding it left or right channel information from another source, it seems it would make no difference before the Insert, or after. The Pan Pot is after the Insert. If it was before the Insert, then maybe something before the Insert would be suspect. At this point, you may have a left signal coming in channel 1, and a right coming in channel 2, and they are independent until after the pan pot, where you will direct them to the left or right main mix buss. Pre- or post-insert should make no difference in their phase. If the signals coming in those two channels are in proper phase, then you should be able to pan them extreme l & r, or pan them both center, without the phase cancellation. Up to that point.

You said you've tried going through the "Stereo Channels", and the same thing is happening? That all leaves out the entire preamp/channel mix section as the source of the problem. Until they all reach the main mix buss, they are still mono signals (for the mono channels) and the left and right stereo signal. So, as stated, if everything is going in properly in phase, we can assume nothing should affect it in there. (But, then...we all know about "assuming" and the recent post about "Critical thinking", right?)

BTW, I am assuming you know the proper functions of the Inserts, and why they set (most of) them up that way? They have even included a handy little interconnecting cable chart in their PDF file, page 32 (kudos to them). I'll assume when you made your cables, you used the top row, third from the left diagram? Under the pics (the line drawings), for your application of creating a TRS to dual-mono plugs, you could just consider the "tips" labeled "Send" and "Return", as Left and Right.

Anyway, what happens is that you'll plug something like a compressor (with unbalanced I/O) in to that. When you plug an insert cable into that, it interrupts the entire flow to the rest of the circuit, allowing you to send a signal through an outboard device, and then back into the circuit. So, the Tip "Sends" the signal to the input of a...let's use "compressor". The signal gets squashed, and comes back through the "Return" line from the output of the compressor, which will be the ring of the TRS insert plug.

You probably already know all this, but I don't know for sure. I'm really not trying to belittle you...I'm just trying to make sure all the information I can think of is presented, because I think there is still some confusion amongst all of us, with regards to each others' theories.

You said you used the Inserts to test it. We can only assume you used the proper cables you said you made (which should be exactly like the "Insert Cable" previously mentioned, from the chart). Did you plug the 1/4" TS plugs all the way in to the Insert jacks? If you did...you may have flipped the signal. Look carefully at the diagram. This is another thing the insert does. You can insert a signal. If you plug a 1/4" TS jack into the first click, it will hit the "Ring" connection, and, of course, you'll have the sleeve ground. The "Ring" connection is the "Return". So, the + of the TS jack tip will continue to the EQ, and happily onward.

If you plugged a TS cable all the way in? You've sent the + signal from your computer into the "Tip", where it is seeing the OUTPUT of the High-Pass filter. And since the TS sleeve will cover the area of the TRS jack's ring and sleeve, you have shorted the ring of the jack to ground. The Ring is the connection to the EQ, and onto the rest of the circuit. To tell the truth..I'm not even sure that would work, at all. You'd be sending the + backwards toward the input, and grounding the input of the EQ.

So, if you only plug it in to the first click, the + will continue to the EQ and onward, the - will go to the ground sleeve of the jack.

All of which will still not affect the phase...since we can assume that if they were plugged all the way in, then both were equally out of polarity, which means they were actually in phase, with respect to each other. If you plugged them only part way in, assuming the polarities were proper in the first place, then it still should make no difference. They would be in phase, with respect to each other. JUST trying to cover all the bases! Forgive me if you knew all this. We can't possibly know all you've attempted.

All that leaves us with a couple of conclusions. Since signals are apparently getting amplified and passed along, the bad -15 V regulator must not be affecting anything pre-main mixer...the main mixer being where the actual channel pan assignments are made to mix them. We still don't know if you are pushing equal volume signals out of of your various left and right outputs to your monitors and headphones. If you are, then the bad -15 V regulator must not be affecting those, either.

All of which may suggest that the bad -15V regulator is only affecting some small circuit that handles channel assignment duties, and for some reason it's allowing something to swap the polarities, but still pass equal level signals. If it weren't passing equal level signals, then it could not cause the out-of-phase cancellation, since only equal-level signals can do so.

Are you getting full use of all your outputs? It seems you are getting full use of all your preamp circuitry. That might narrow everything down. Double check all your outputs.

Either something is flipping full-level signals in a remote part of the circuitry for some reason, or the input signals are swapped in the first place...assuming your outputs are all present and strong. I think this is where the regulator question is getting some resistance. Does that -15V feed only a small circuit, common to the left/right mix function? Or, is it connected to many things, including other things in the pre- and main sections? If it's common to many things, many might wonder why some sections seem to work, while others don't? If it's common, if it affects one, it should affect all.

i think what many are having trouble comprehending is that they would delegate a voltage supply source to only a tiny portion of a circuit, and that if part of that supply failed, it would still pass equal-level amplitude signals necessary to cause cancellation, passed through the pre- section unaffected, while only flipping the phase...to continue full strength to the outputs. It seems improbable, but we all know nothing is "impossible". The most "probable" source of the problem is that the two signals are getting introduced into it out-of-phase. But, you are confident that you are missing the -15V, and I won't question that.

See why this seems so odd? A proper schematic might reveal some answers. At least some of my questions would be answered, as far as what parts certain supply lines affected.

I'm just trying to help narrow it down (and bring a little anxiety level down from everyone)! It could be a bad IC or regulator, etc...OR, even something else bad bringing something on one of those down to appear that it is bad. It could be that the part that appears to be not working isn't really bad at all...it's just something else preventing it from doing its thing?

As always, I may have gotten a thing or two mixed up, myself. It's easy to do when trying to imagine switched paths, so feel free to correct me, if necessary!

Brad1

[Brad1]

Actually, before doing much else, there are a couple of simple tests you could do. It will eliminate any possibility of the wrong phase going in to start with..

Get a 1/4" TS to two 1/4" TS "Y" cable to use as a splitter. It should be wired tip-to-tip on all tips, and sleeve-to-sleeve on all sleeves, to split a mono signal into two paths. Just like on page 33, third cable from the left. (If you use a short cable, you may want to just buy a cheap 1/4" female jack to two 1/4" male plugs. That way you can just plug an instrument into the jack, and it will split the mono signal into two.)

Plug the split -end jacks into two channels of the mixer. Plug the single in to an instrument...preferably a bass guitar, or keyboard or something with low-end frequency to produce the most noticeable effect.

Now...play something, and listen. Move the pan pots. Does anything phase out, now? With a properly-wired "Y" splitter cable, there is no chance of the inputs being switched. They are the exact same single. If the screwy phase effect is still happening, then it is somewhere else, and you've just confirmed. If it isn't happening, then everything is working fine, because you've just set it for an identical frequency to have the opportunity to cancel itself out. That should reveal a lot. Simple test.

If it IS still happening at the output? Well..you've just eliminated the possibility that two input signals were out of phase. then, look past that.

Brad1

[mozwell]

i hope this helps, its the F1-6, not the F1-14/2, but the channels & power supply may be similar enough to help you.

[g1]

One important check for you to make before replacing the regulator.
Make sure the -15V rail is not shorted or low resistance to ground. With the regulator removed from the circuit, measure the resistance at the circuit board where the 2 outside legs of the regulator would be (pin1 is ground, pin3 is output -15V rail). If it is low resistance or shorted, it means one (or more) of the chips are shorted. If this is the case, a new regulator will just burn up, the defective IC's will have to be located and replaced before installing the new regulator.
After re-reading the entire thread several times I can see some of the errors I have made in assumptions, logic, and being "locked in" on certain ideas. My apologies to the OP for that, I can understand your frustration. Brad1 had outlined some of the reasons why this problem is confusing and seems illogical to us.
OK on to excuses and theorizing. I'll completely disregard cables or hookup. The first assumption we made was that, aside from the phase reversal at the outputs, everything else was completely functioning correctly. The key to this is when did the regulator fail (indicated by the meters showing level when no signal present). If the regulator failure caused the problem it must cause other problems. The IC's in the mixer require both + and - 15V to run properly. It's possible the distortion the regulator failure would cause was not noticed or the signal level was not large enough for the distortion to be noticed.
The other possible scenario is that a component failure caused a phase reversal at one of the outputs before the regulator failed. If this were the case then the mixer could have otherwise been fully functional. But this would be at the high end of highly improbable. And as Brad mentioned, it would not explain why the problem disappeared when using the inserts. I don't know of any mixer fault that could cause that. As he also mentioned, it was an exact description of the classic 180 degree phase reversal. I've never heard of a mixer fault that could cause that, it's always cable/hookup related. So this could be a first.
My previous post was based on the assumption that you were using a stereo TRS plug into a mono balanced input and was just plain wrong. Some of my logic was faulty regardless of what you were using for an input. So I hope you can accept my apology and wish you success with the repair.