Sprague Orange Drop Caps

[David Schwab]

~12,000 hz.

Better yet, go to an audiologist and have your hearing checked. That's what I do.

You can't go by a YouTube video and your computer speakers.

And boy that starts to get gets loud at 3k.... (where human hearing is most sensitive)

[David Schwab]

Only if you imagine that's what it says.

There's not a claim that's made in that quote that bothers me. All that the guy said was that he looked around the shop to find as much information as he could, and that included purchasing records with vendor identification and part descriptions. No fraud so far. Then he says that he couldn't find blueprints. Still no fraud. Then he rambles pointlessly about pickups, control assemblies and pickguards. Still no fraud. Then he says that he found a vendor willing to listen to his request. He sent them some old 'bees and the vendor's response was that the caps had a wide range of tolerance. Still no fraud.

Fist off, stop using the word "fraud". Go back and read any of my post and look for that word being used. If you have some obsession with that word, do something about it, but not here. However, if you can find Gibson's original ad copy, they said they were reproductions of the original cap made like the original cap. They have since changed that and removed all the old web pages that said that. Why? Probably because it was a lie, and that is fraud. That's known as truth in advertising.

What I said was that they are taking advantage of people by over charging them. Do you disagree with that? If not, go take $120 out of your pocket and burn it now. That equates to the same thing.

What he does say in that quote was that he took old caps to capacitor makers:

"once I found a vendor willing to listen to my request I sent him 5 original Bumblebee capacitors to run tests on with the specifications from my purchasing records."

Notice that most were probably not willing to listen because they realize that there is no difference in the caps. They aren't drinking the magic guitar mojo kool aid.

What does that say to you? If he was just going to order some new standard film caps, he could look in their catalog and pick out a .022µF cap, or what ever he wanted. He said he wanted them to analyze the old original Bumblebee capacitors and supply caps that matched those specifications.

Did they do that? No, they supplied off the shelf caps that cost about 40 cents each. If the old caps were exactly the same as the new caps, then why bother? For the looks? You can't see them when they are installed in the guitar. I would wager most people who buy those are expecting them to be something different from a run of the mill film cap.

The bottom line is; How do those caps end up costing $64.98 each? That's a mark up of $64.57 just to stick a plastic case with some stripes on it. And I bet they have them done in China. That plastic case is most likely cheaper than the cap, even after the stripes are painted on.

So the rest of that $64 is a sucker tax, because that's what you are if you buy those.

Sonny W showed you can have your vintage looking caps without ripping off unsuspecting people.

[Steve Conner]

The irony is that Sonny's handmade phonebook caps probably have about $120 worth of labour in them! :-O

[Leo_Gnardo]

The irony is that Sonny's handmade phonebook caps probably have about $120 worth of labour in them! :-O

True that Steve!

Another irony is that nobody in an audience, no music buyer, no recording producer or engineer is going to give a s#!t whether anybody has bunglebees, discs, or anything else in the guitar tone circuit.*

Can you imagine, "I'm going to see the Ding-Dongs, they're terrific because they all have bunglebees in their guitars." And "Oh those Wumpadumps, don't bother going - they SUCK because they have disc caps in their guitars." Never gonna happen.

FZ: shut up and play your guitar!

*One of the best local guitarists had me REMOVE his tone controls. People come up to him & ask "Where's your tone controls?" He holds up his hands and says "I got ten tone controls right here." He's always giggin' for good money too. Audiences are apparently satisfied. edit: Just found out, now he's touring the USA & Canada. Mo' money, mo' happy audiences.

[bob p]

The irony is that Sonny's handmade phonebook caps probably have about $120 worth of labour in them! :-O

that's an important point -- two different entities are essentially providing the same service in providing two different products. on one hand there is a corporation who is doing this for profit, and on the other hand we have an artisan who is doing this as a labor of love. both are charging what they think is a fair price for their product. they're using two entirely different business models. neither one is invalid, they're just different.

it's amazes me that some people are so vehemently intolerant of one vs. the other.

[g1]

on one hand there is a corporation who is doing this for profit, and on the other hand we have an artisan who is doing this as a labor of love. both are charging what they think is a fair price for their product. they're using two entirely different business models. neither one is invalid, they're just different.

You may believe they really think $129.99/pair is a fair price, I don't. But we can only speculate. In an ideal free market, the seller of the radically overpriced item will not survive, so it is not a "valid" business model. Perhaps this is why the item is not available.

it's amazes me that some people are so vehemently intolerant of one vs. the other.

Again, the workings of the free market. Shady practice leads to "badmouthing" to the detriment of the sellers reputation. Similar to what they used to call being "run out of town".

[bob p]

In an ideal free market, the seller of the radically overpriced item will not survive, so it is not a "valid" business model.

There's an old saying that MBA keep score in dollars, and that until the spread changes there's no reason to modify the business model. I'm thinking that there's got to be some MBA at Gibson who's decided that their business model will remain unchanged as long as it remains profitable for them. So far it's been working for them. Will this capacitor “fraud” thing come back to bite them? Interesting question.

I believe in the efficient market theory too. But I doubt that all of the huffing and puffing about “fraud” related to caps in this forum is going to be enough to put an end to Gibson guitars. I doubt that the people who hang out in this forum are even the target demographic for Historic Gibsons. I'm trying to sort out whether the outrage that's been expressed here is a typical representation of Gibson's target demographic. I don't think it is. It seems that the outrage that is prevalent here is turned up a notch compared to what it's like on other internet sites, presumably because we're in a forum that's populated by a number of Gibson's competitors. Looking at the responses of Gibson Historic customers on other sites, I don't see such extreme “badmouthing” or any attempt to “run them out of town.” I think that the sentiment to put an end to Gibson is more attributable to Gibson's competitors than to their customers.

So far it looks like Gibson is continuing to sell a lot of guitars even though the knowledge of the bumblebee cap construction has been disseminated for at least a year and a half. It doesn't look like Gibson is going broke, or that the Gibson brand name will be disappearing from the marketplace anytime soon. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for them to fall victim to the efficiency of the free market. The hard truth is that Gibson has been a popular brand names longer than any of us have been alive. It will probably still be one of the most popular brand names long after everyone in this forum is dead and buried. Of course, this reality gives some people all the more reason to hate Gibson.

[bob p]

edit: double post.

[Mike Sulzer]

Have you ever heard of a straw man argument? With you it is more like a straw man army. Why don't you stop distorting what people are saying, and realize that there are different view points on this, but almost nobody fits the stereotype that you keep reinforcing with your long boring comments. OK, I have to admit that I did not read all of this one, so maybe you said something useful, but I doubt it.

[big_teee]

This Thread should have never been put in the Pickup Makers forum to start with.
Most Pickup winders could care less what Cap is put in a historic Guitar or any other.
For the most part I use Caps by value, If it has the right tone I'm looking for, I use it.
If not I go up or down in value!
The Moderator could move this thread, I for one would be fine with it!
Do we have a Second on that?
T

[Steve Conner]

For once I agree, Gibson-bashing (or Gibson-defending because you happen to own one) is off topic for this thread. It is a free market after all, if you don't like their stupid overpriced caps or self-tuning robot guitars, just don't buy them!

A friend of mine bought one of the "Barely finished" Les Pauls. What a crazy idea. It looked like it had been run over by a truck! But it played well and sounded good.

[SonnyW]

Before the moderator moves the thread, I would just like to point out that pricing of "luxury items" usually goes on the theory that the higher the price, the more desirable the good will be perceived. These are known as veblen goods from the theories of Thorsten Veblen in 1899. So this kind of thing has been around pretty much forever. Such pricing really has almost no relation to actual use value of the good.

[bob p]

A friend of mine bought one of the "Barely finished" Les Pauls. What a crazy idea. It looked like it had been run over by a truck! But it played well and sounded good.

I think that the craziness is based on economics. It's getting really expensive to produce goods here in the USA, and the prices just keep climbing. MSRP on some models has doubled. So Gibson responds by making more affordable models that have less of the accoutrements and less of the final finishing steps that are found on the more expensive versions. I think the BFG is an example of this. Gibson did the same thing back in the 70s/80s when they made "The Paul." It's just a lower price point offering.

Gibson The Paul - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm all for a change of venue. Music Electronics?

[Steve Conner]

I've moved the thread to Music Electronics. Dave Schwab and Bob P, please stop kicking lumps out of each other and try to stay on topic, if anyone can even remember what the original topic was.

For the record, I argue that there's no shame in buying a Gibson guitar with the alleged "fake" bumblebee caps inside. I think it's a nice cosmetic touch. But if you bought them at the $129 price point as an upgrade, you probably should be feeling foolish as there's no way in hell they would make your guitar sound any better. If you bought them to replace shorted caps in your mint original '59 LP, because you wanted to keep the control cavity looking stock, well, I can empathise and I only wish I was in a position to do the same.

Also there is a thread about this thread at The Amp Garage The Amp Garage :: View topic - Guitar Cap Mythbuster

[Mike Sulzer]

From you comment over at ampgarage:

........
At one time I thought the tone cap would make no difference with the control full up but careful listening showed me that's not so. (Currently there are "special" pots available that do go open-circuit when dialed full up, so there's an option that does take the cap out of circuit.)
........

The cap is a short circuit at frequencies near the resonance of the pickup/cable system where the impedance is very high, and yes, the 500K R then loads the pickup audibly. But does it matter what kind of cap you use, if that is a relevant question in this discussion? The answer is no, and the value of the cap is not even critical. Think of it as a coupling cap somewhat removed from the signal path.