speaker impedence in pro sound situation

[km6xz]

Agreed Stan! Old sound engineer adage: the wider you open the window, the more s#!t flies in.

And it's a hoot to see Rolling Stoves backline mic'd up with U87's & similar. What's the point? They STILL sound like an AM radio. SM57's would suffice perfectly well. The most successful garage band in the world. Don't get me wrong folks, I like the Stones. Just don't go to the show and expect hi fi. It ain't Pink Floyd.

I was on a campaign for a long time to improve vocal performances as perceived by audiences and the greatest single change to stage configuration was lowering stage SPL. Singing harmony or unison is impossible without close proximity and visual cuing and that vocal option essentially went way when monitors started getting so loud. Another "feature" of high SPL on stage is a dramatic drop in dynamic range as a performance element, when the singer is screaming on any passage, it really limits their range of expression and dynamics. If you are already screaming you are already running out of vocal range and off key.

In fact excess level in the house also hurts more concerts than were ever aided by it. When there is average levels 3-6 db below maximum power everything loses dynamics. Our ears and brain adjust so perception is of the same range if at 80 db or 120, and our impression of power is not absolute but delta, the difference between two levels, or the average level as auto-"adjusted" by our brains, and peak or trough levels. So a system that is pushed, with compressors to very high average SPL has no room to create the difference ratio that gives the impression of power and dynamics.
An excessively loud average signal lack dynamics and is boring. Our brains, if confronted with a sound level of 80db, gives the same perceived loudness as one running averages of 120 or 130db after a little time to acclimate to it. But when there add peaks of both systems, it is obvious the one that has 40-50 db of headroom is going to sound a lot more dynamic and powerful than one that has 3-6 db in headroom. Absolute power means very little but differences does.. I suppose the race of such high power levels and SPL levels was pushed by 1/2 deaf FOH mixers who really do not consider the audience's enjoyment, but instead try to compete with other 1/2 deaf FOH mixers. No one in the staff or management bothers with checking to see how it sounds to the audience or whether they are even having fun. All the focus is on FOH mixer's personal preference and stage monitors.
The few times I worked with beginning younger acts, I tried to instill better practice and rehearsal habits by doing song workups with no electronics, just sitting in a circle close enough to hear the unaided vocalist, so they could hear the nuances of a song that they might only know from full stage volume at their rehearsal hall. Sometimes it allows finding out what a song meant even after having already played it hundreds of times before, but too loud to hear it well.
To give a clue about dynamics and why their kilowatt amps were not the key to it, i took them to a classical concert, where the noise floor was 45db(with audience, 20db without) and average level was 70 and the massed crescendos were 124db. I knew what to expect since they never heard that sort of DR before, they were often blown away by the sense of power those acoustic instruments generated. The sense of power came from the ratio of average to peak that far exceeded anything they had heard before in their rock concerts.

[soundguruman]

Your PA should sound like a really good home stereo.
Not loud, but clean and clear, with the highs and lows balanced flat.
Don't you wish that the last 3 concerts you went to, had that same sound quality?

I paid $50 for tickets, and the sound system was crap. Or, should I say: the engineer was crap?
Since the manufacturer won't do it, it's up to the engineer to do it. So, do it.

[km6xz]

If a live performance sounded like a home stereo, why go to a concert and deal with jerk security, binge drinking teens puking over whoever is nearest, and high prices?

I do not even like big rock concerts anymore, or stereos for that matter. I spend my time in dance clubs, jazz clubs, classical, ballet and opera theaters. Besides the girls are hotter in these.......
I always figured a bad bar band live is better than a great album as a total experience. After spending so much time with recorded, I don't turn on the stereo for months at a time now, and then only when some girl requests background music. I am just not into passive entertainment much. That is the same reason for giving my last TV away 15 years ago, any time lost by passively sitting in front of it is gone forever.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I was on a campaign for a long time to improve vocal performances as perceived by audiences ... No one in the staff or management bothers with checking to see how it sounds to the audience or whether they are even having fun.

above edited for brevity only. Heckuva write Stan!

Wise wise words Stan, and the world oughta know. Well the musicians anyway. On rare occasions I was asked "what can we do in rehearsal to improve" my answer was much the same: acoustic guitars & maybe the drummer hittin' a carboard box or cajon at most. Work on the vocals vocals vocals. There's so many spectacular guitarists it gets to be a bit of a bore to hear one solo after another. (Sacrilege!) And I've certainly experienced the too-loud stage and volume wars even with the "best" of bands. Takes an awful lot of self-discipline to not go there. Mighty good of you to get some musos to check out an orchestra concert. Funny thing when I listen to FM broadcasts of the Boston Symphony live at Tanglewood (and others besides) they're ironed flat dynamically with multiple compressors. Barely more dynamics than a McTallica release. Gotta see the real thing to get the dynamic impression so - if anybody's paying attention - you can't cheat, you gotta see & hear it live.

[km6xz]

Agreed, I think hearing the power and range of expression of a full orchestra would be a good grounding for rock musicians, to every once in a while be reminded of the musical and emotional impact of dynamics that would serve them well when working out arrangements or vocal phrasing of their own work.

I did not work with many new or garage bands but the pros I worked with had a few things in common, one being they worked a lot harder to make it seem easy, and had more appreciation of the little things that help the overall song impression. Sure, a guitarist might go all ego tripping during a break but when the song was being done, it was the song and not their ego that ruled. Also the real pros were much more down to earth and easy to work with than the kids who learned what "rock star behavior" from movies and MTV. The pros were serious, they knew 100,000 kids were trying to knock them out of the saddle to take those top spots, and worked well with the production team.
So it always amazed me how much they trusted the sound guys in concerts who were doing badly by them, or why their manager was not out in the audience listening and watching response to determine if it sounded good. Most experienced groups are better than they sound in concert to the majority of the audience. Listening to the concert sound leaves the impression that the FOH mixer never really listened to the record and do not understand the meaning of the songs. You can just imagine in your mind what that eq curve is and those compressor settings are based on habit. I've have been in sound checks that start with the CD of the group and having a wonderfully capable PA system of Meyers mains or similar ilk and it sounding great better than any home system or even the studio monitors, with the board fully normalized before touching anything. After 30 minutes of the FOH mixer applying his trademark settings to it, it sounds like every other bottom heavy, face ripping high end and mud filled middle generic excess level, insufficient DR concert sound. Add in the vocal and instrument mics dealing with ambient 128 db stage level and it bears little resemblance to the intended musical character.

The ubiquitous SM57 you mentioned being replaced by the U87, well the 87 does have a high max SPL capability but there is a good bet the original track was done with the lowly SM57, which is the most recorded mic of all time. It is probably the most versatile versus rugged mic used in the studio. It is not great on anything but good on everything. A high end large diaphragm condenser is GREAT on some voices or some guitars or whatever but not all. So the ratio of mundane mics to top end mics is very high in any working studio, the mundane mics get more use because they suck on less.

A good mic locker is not the one that has all vintage tube mics but one that has the widest variety of mics because the mic needed or prefered on a part is determined by the exact session conditions at hand and not due to some formula or rule of thumb. Mic selection most often is to mask problems instead of being the best quality mic. A marginal mic that captures all but the problem, is a better choice than a perfect mic that captures the problem perfectly. Real sessions are not by formula of best items put up, it is real time solution finding the best compromise for the song, on that session, with that vocalist who had that much sleep the night before and etc and etc.

The same should apply to live, by the group and and mixer working to tailor the sound to the best compromise between the conditions at hand and the intended impression the songs are to leave. Every venue is very different and using the same formula means that some audiences are going to have a much better or worse experience. I know there is a lot of pressure and time constraints in live mixing but there seems to be little concern for what the audience really experiences. It is not a problem with lack of equipment, concert sound system components now are really good.

[soundguruman]

If a live performance sounded like a home stereo, why go to a concert and deal with jerk security, binge drinking teens puking over whoever is nearest, and high prices?

I do not even like big rock concerts anymore, or stereos for that matter. I spend my time in dance clubs, jazz clubs, classical, ballet and opera theaters. Besides the girls are hotter in these.......
I always figured a bad bar band live is better than a great album as a total experience. After spending so much time with recorded, I don't turn on the stereo for months at a time now, and then only when some girl requests background music. I am just not into passive entertainment much. That is the same reason for giving my last TV away 15 years ago, any time lost by passively sitting in front of it is gone forever.

A true Renaissance tech dude.