Rugged roadworthy Bass amp suggestions ?

[solarbass]

I have used a few different Bass amps. Trace Elliott seems rugged but is getting old, power supply caps are getting tired. Not much power output 200W I think.
G-K amps seem poorly made, and seem to wear out in the knobs and mechanicals like the preamp PCB. They have a lot of power though.
Eden - have heard good things, not tried 'em.
Hartke - sound OK but seems like a lot of fixing on this site.
EBS - look good but kind of pricey.
Peavey, Mesa Boogie, Orange - not used 'em but have not heard good things.

Which Bass high power amps have you all seen the least of, in a repair sense ?
Or if you see them they appear to be quite rugged and well made ?

Thanks, and happy holidays.
Solarbass.

[km6xz]

Most of the comments about poorly made amps are based on having one unit that broke. Look at a whole group of repair notes, hundreds of each model as a percentage of total units sold and you would get a better idea.
Some of the models you dismissed because of a few reports here are sold in the dozens and other in the hundreds of thousands.

Rugged means something different for different people and different intended purposes so without knowing the details of the conditions it will be transported, the usage, the power level, the care and attention by the owner and most of all, past experience with blowing up amps. People who complain the most usually abuse their gear and have a long history of gear abuse or misuse and their experiences should not be used as evidence of amp design or construction weaknesses.

Will it have a custom made ATA rated road case? Will it be running on generators for stage power? Will you have spares.
As a general rule solid state is more roadworthy simply because there is lower mass due to fewer transformers. They can be lighter built to withstand the shock of transportation. They also sound more consistent with less than optimum power sources.

Modern amp designs without massive transformers can be light and small, both contributors to the term rugged, if transportation is the main assault on it. Something like a MarkBass is a good contender for small, light and high power. The problem with high power is it is easy to abuse and destroy speaker since it is no uncommon for later amps to be over 1kw. Generating gobs of power is not hard or expensive nowadays with switching power supplies and Class D power stages. If it is for large venue stage use, high power is not even needed since local equipment will be available and the stage sound is a small portion of total sound the audience hears since the house PA will be many thousands of watts with many more square feet of driven speaker area.
Anything with SMD pc boards will be lower mass, with fewer intermittent connections.
One thing to consider it where it is designed. From experience those good value amps designed in Asia but sold with western brand names tend to be aimed at the average buyer of value products...cheap stuff and touring the assaults on equipment are complete unknowns to those designers is my guess because if it can wiggle loose or break from severe vibration it will. They are building for a spec and a market niche and mass market of non-road-going pro musicians. But any amp can be ruggedized. Any high mass objects can be secured mechanically, every wire or cable can be tied down to chassis mounted tie points, and filter cap can be tied to others or mechanically braced.
I've seen Hartke 5000's survive world tours with a bit of care, and hand wired Mesa's fall apart during the first trucked single state tour, so it is hard to say if one particular owner, or roadie will kill one particular amp.
The type of touring determines if there is road repairs possible, usually there is not enough time in a city to get repairs done in a shop, and many cities, surprisingly large cities, have no competent techs so consider when out on the road, you are the only thing that keeps it running.
So answer some of these questions and more specific answers can be given.

[soundguruman]

I have used a few different Bass amps. Trace Elliott seems rugged but is getting old, power supply caps are getting tired. Not much power output 200W I think.
G-K amps seem poorly made, and seem to wear out in the knobs and mechanicals like the preamp PCB. They have a lot of power though.
Eden - have heard good things, not tried 'em.
Hartke - sound OK but seems like a lot of fixing on this site.
EBS - look good but kind of pricey.
Peavey, Mesa Boogie, Orange - not used 'em but have not heard good things.

Which Bass high power amps have you all seen the least of, in a repair sense ?
Or if you see them they appear to be quite rugged and well made ?

Thanks, and happy holidays.
Solarbass.

Since I play Bass, and I am technician, I will give my highly opinionated opinions...

I would go for GK or SWR, simply because they support customers without jumping thru hoops of fire. GK does not wear out any faster than the rest of them.
I would have used something like an Ashly /or Rane instrument preamp, and a power amp, in a little rack case.
For the power amp, I wouldn't mind a PV CS 400...simply because again, PV supports customers with schematics and parts, and they are nice about it. Or, I would use a solid state McIntosh power amp maybe...

Peavey- I don't like the sound quality of the preamps or speakers. I just don't like the "tone." Peavey makes lots of amps, but I've never been impressed with the way they sound.

Mesa Boogie - No, definitely not. Essentially, no schematic support, very limited parts support, and I do not like the way it's built. Probably "the most" expensive to maintain...it "does have" snob appeal.

Orange- The tube amps are very good, well made, long lasting. However since the new ones are all made in China, expect limited parts support. I have been able to get parts for "current" models, but 2-3 years down the road, Chinese amps have pretty limited parts options. Orange may be the best, to get parts from Chinese amp makers.

New "Ampeg" - It's not really Ampeg, it's a Chinese facsimile...again, no long term parts support, especially on transformers and other critical parts...I would never buy one. And I don't like the way they sound either.
OLD Ampeg is the REAL Ampeg. Might be tempted to buy a REAL USA SVT and rebuild it to working condition. But you see, you're hauling an 85 pound amp head + cabinets...so it depends on "how much" power you really need.

Hartke- No. For sure no. No parts support, they WILL give you a schematic...but the high power amp heads basically self destruct from thier own heat. Poor thermal management, yuck.

My basic advice- avoid Chinese, try to get sales, support, and service in USA, from USA manufacturer. In the long run, over many years, you will be happy you did.
Chinese may "seem" like a bargain, but the lack of long term parts support will have many people throwing away amps that would have otherwise been easily repairable.

Speakers- It's called EVM Bro.
The loudest and most efficient in the smallest cabinet. Great support and recone service, etc...free cabinet plans, or pre built cabs.
always follow the manufacturer cabinet plans to get the most from a speaker.

[km6xz]

The newer reissue retro style Ampegs are very close to the old US version in construction and are not Chinese, they are assembled in Viet Nam. The only problem with them is some components, like screen resistors are mounted tight to the PC board so arc through is common. Lifting those resistors .5cm up solves that one problem. The assemblers probably were not even born when tubes and their high voltage were still being used in consumer products.

I was the warranty station, one of the first in the US for Hartke and do not remember any heat related output failures. There were lots of little breakages due to light weigh components...input jacks, board connectors, voltage regulator IC unsoldering themselves or breaking the leads as they entered the body of the chip, pots and any of the vertical mount electrolytic caps breaking solder joints from vibration..
Agree that Mesa are not friendly in layout, no logic in packaging and too many flying leads. Orange has gone through a number of incarnations so it depends on the model and era. The ones being built now are pretty good, besides they get points for the pretty white enamel chassis treatment. Hiwatt bass reissue are very nicely wired but their normal more reasonably priced models are not much different than everything else.
Peavey gets credit for customer support in the US but if touring outside the country, the national distributors are as bad or worse than any of the no-support. They would sell well here if there was some sort of customer support but they don't so don't. If Hartley knew what their foreign distributors were doing in their name, he would not be happy.

The newer design MarkBass and TC Electronic amps are both very light, high power, and solid so they would probably hold up better than conventional amps with heavy transformers stressing the chassis.

A preamp and quality pa amp would be pretty tough but determining what power amps are built well might be a problem for the non-engineer or experienced tech since they all claim to high reliability. An older Crown would be hard to beat for ruggedness and reasonable used, plus anyone who knows solid state amps can repair it. But PA amps are heavy so harder to handle on the road than a compact bass head.
A big plus for new switch mode power supply amps is they are essentially immune to power source problems, and handle spikes, sag, frequency drift and poor regulation in stride. If a generator is used, and is not phase locked to a 60 hz clock, a conventional power transformer might protest loudly if the frequency drifts lower. A 60hz transformer can have extreme eddy current losses and heating if run on 50hz or lower. I have a Carvin in the shop now, it is a US model run here on 50 hz and a step down transformer. It pulls high current at 50 hz but runs fine on 60hz. I rigged up a power amp and signal generator to drive it to see how low it could run and 55hz was about the cut off above which it pulled acceptable current for the total load power. It uses a large toroid transformer.

Large magnet speakers that can handle the power of these amps are by necessity, low efficiency and need a lot of power, to handle a lot of power for the same SPL as a lower powered driver. That added weight increases the odds of speaker failure, often by magnet shift. There are a lot of separate reasons to opt for lower power, high efficiency systems than high power low efficiency.

Regarding an SVT, an older one or a newer one, only consider the solid state models, the tube SVTs will eat you out of house and home in tube and repair, and muscle injuries. They sound nice for some styles of music but are not really optimum for a wide variety of music.
I like the GK's for being solid, small and powerful. A 1001a is compact and rugged. Their oldest ones are still desired and easy to keep running like the 800 Rb. The newer amps are a bit let tech friendly but are big sounding, strong and not too heavy.

Any amp, and model is as reliable or not, based on how it is used and cared for, so when looking for a used one, look to the owner and how he treats his gear. If his other amps are just as lousy as this one he is selling, it is probably a good one to avoid because he is hard on amps. The vast majority of owners never have a problem with any model. Hartke's are read about a lot because they are cheap, sound good and millions can afford them. Mesa, is not so affordable and sells less but still has repair issues occasionally so repair frequency compared to total numbers in the field, the Hartke might more reliable statistically.
Old Peavey's are hard to kill, are very simple and east to repair.
If looking for a used amp, get a full accounting for any repairs done on it. The reason is that the difference between a reliable long lasting amp and a piece of worthless junk is usually simply the knowledge, honesty and effectiveness of the last repair person to touch it. MOST techs are not techs and can ruin your investment by giving you back a unit that is essentially working but will never be good or reliable again. Once it is repaired badly, it can never be cost efficient to undo bad work. If you take it to several until you find a good guy, it is too late and already been compromised. There ought to be a seperate forum for finding good people because it is the very hardest aspect of keep gear working as it should, for as long as it was originally capable of running.
Clues to look for in bad techs are those who "shot gun" meaning replacing parts until it works. It proves they did not understand the problem and never developed an accurate diagnosis. Your repair bill with be higher, and your unit less reliable if you run into that sort of incompetent tech. A high percentage of techs are that way however and have neither the training or understanding of the principles involved to create an accurate diagnosis.
Beware of techs who bad mouth a lot of models and brands. There is a high probability they do not understand the circuits and are going by emotions rather than logic.
Another one to avoid is one who thinks tone comes from boutique type high priced parts and insists on such items or it will sound bad. They are not telling the truth and are mostly interested in extracting as much money as possible from you. Good sound comes from good songs played well, not $40 oxygen free capacitors. There is a lot of internet chatter about high end parts and "tone" and 99% is bogus claptrap by wannabees who think magic parts will make them sound good. Good players sound good. Period, there is no magic popularity pill. Bad players use the excuse of "tone" why people do not like their performances or songs. It makes as much sense as a race driver explaining why he always loses is because of the color of the sponsor decals.
Good luck, play good.

[Enzo]

When you see a lot of one brand being repaired on a forum like this, keep in mind that the most common failures are the most common amps. If I went to a foreign car garage and saw 25 Mercedes Benz cars lined up and only one Yugo, should I assume that Mercedes makes crappy cars that break 25 times more than Yugos? You see hartkes in repair a lot because there are a boatload of them out there.

[soundguruman]

When you see a lot of one brand being repaired on a forum like this, keep in mind that the most common failures are the most common amps. If I went to a foreign car garage and saw 25 Mercedes Benz cars lined up and only one Yugo, should I assume that Mercedes makes crappy cars that break 25 times more than Yugos? You see hartkes in repair a lot because there are a boatload of them out there.

From the Hartkes I have seen...(the high power bass heads)
The thermal Management rates right up there, with Crate.
I can't understand what the heck the designer was thinking. It reminds me more of home stereo amp, than Bass Amp.
Obviously, designer is not bass player, and has no understanding of what bass amp is "supposed" to do...that's for sure.

I mean, it has preamp, EQ, and power amp all in one. That's a good idea...

But the preamp no sound good, the eq frequencies is what you "not" want, and the power amp self immolates.
I think it might be possible to modify it into something useable, but the fan(s) is making the noise equivalent to something like a shop vac.
That is to say, after the fans start moving fast enough to try cool down the amp, long after the amp has been hot for way too long...

So it's easy to see why instrument preamp and PV CS400, (or whatever hi fi power amp) in a small rack case, is an appealing alternative.
At least the PV has adequate heat sink.

[km6xz]

How many Hartke's with damaged outputs do you see? Yes, they are light weight but popular because they are affordable and many bass players like their sound. Sure, they are not the best but they also cost 1/4 as much and find an enthusiastic audience.
I never bothers to re-design one to make it more reliable or cooler because I never saw much problem. Surely your clients are using them differently or abusing them if they are all overheating. Have you analyzed what they are doing that overheats them.

Sort of the same with Bugera, cheap and affordable and if played reasonably, guitarists really like the sound. I have dozens of rehearsal studios with them and they all like the sound because their clients do. These rehearsal halls have 10-15 rooms each fill with a wide variety of classic or new equipment so it not due to being cheap, some of the SVTs or Marshalls in the rooms are well over $3000 buying used and shipping from the US. With all the variety of gear, many clients request the Bugera's. They are easy to repair, cheap to buy and do not need bias adjustments so the cost of running them is lower than the boutique amps or vintage amps. Sure, there are better amps but they sell a ton of them because they fit a need.

As you can tell, I am not a gear snob....except in test instruments, and only care if a device fits the need. There are very few bad designs out there now, where as 30-40 years ago there were many bad designs. Parts are better and cheaper now, modeling in design is cheap and much more refined, assembly using robots for pc work is more accurate and trouble free than ever. The only weaknesses seem to be when building to a price point and promising too much, but it still is not a bad design. I see many more inappropriate applications of equipment than bad designs.

[Jazz P Bass]

I have a Hartke HA5500 on the bench for a DO repair. (you plugged What into it?)

The HA3500 is it's little brother & it has a chassis cooling fan.

The HA5500 has it also but they added a smaller fan directly on the output heatsink tunnel.
(They are the exact same amplifier but for a beefier power section on the 5500.)

I would take that to mean 'responsible engineering'.

The amp does get a bit toasty at full power.
At 500 watts output I would expect it to.

[jbltwin1]

Have a Hartke 3500 that I have beat to hell, all OVER the country. Even bought it used and it had been the house amp in a small club in the next town over. SEVERAL years old(like maybe 10-15. Don't really know). It's only crashed once and THAT was a cap shorted. It IS is a hard case but the case gets thrown around and it isn't exactly treated with kid gloves. Just MY 2c's worth. Mike.