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The value of "Tone", as it applies to electronic musical instuments

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  • #16
    Sure tone exists as a set of transfer functions modifying the fundamental but no one prefers a single function until it was made pleasant by the association with a compelling message. By itself, a note, conveys no information and has no emotional impact. If you are seeking a particular tone, why did you not seek that tone before it was associated with a message that gave it weight? Same with symphonic instruments, they come and go in and out of favor based on compositions. Same has occurred with popular music instruments in the past few hundred years.
    You are looking at if from the perspective of a lone musician performing songs that are not original. My whole career was concerned only with music that no one had heard before and how an audience responded to it so we approach it differently. I doubt you will find any pros who are regularly involved with creating something new who is so aligned with "tone" and less with song.
    If you studied the history of instruments and composition, you would see that when equipment preferences changed, it was in response to new compositions that prompted it. When listening to Early Music, or in original arrangements, it takes finding instruments that are suitable. The current orchestral equipment is focused on a fairly narrow time of classical, non-religious, composition. I live in a city with 54 classical concert halls and opera houses, so many periods are represented every night in classical music, and I visit those as often as jazz clubs or dance clubs, as most people do here. By spending so much time in other countries and seeing how they differ in music tone preferences, it is easy to see that it is a learned cultural response to the society one finds themselves. It is just like religions, preferences are strongly associated with the accident of birth place. I am also old enough to have seen many "tone" preference shifts in my own culture, to know that there is nothing intrinsic in tone function that makes one more desirable than another. In that case, preferences are by accident of birth era and what was major influences when growing up. It is not by accident that most people searching for a specific tone function are trying to reproduce music character that was common when they were 14-20 years old.....no matter when or where they were born.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by km6xz View Post
      You are looking at if from the perspective of a lone musician performing songs that are not original.
      I'm looking at it from the perspective that what makes me listen to music at all, is it's tone.
      There are a lot of very famous musical artists that have sold millions of records that never got a dime from me.
      Why, I don't like their tone... plain and simple. The words, the notes on the sheets, or the emotions poured out have little to do with my musical preferences.
      Now Trending: China has found a way to turn stupidity into money!

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      • #18
        I tend to side with Stan on this issue, but not without my other caveats mentioned above. That's why I always play devils advocate when he comes across so resolute and offering no merit to the efforts of the rest of the population I don't know how many amplifier makers (or even woodwind, violin, didgeridoo, banjo makers, etc) are out there, but not all of them are only trying to make what works well enough to sell or copies a trend. Some are trying to make something that sounds good in a relevant and definable way. I don't believe that everyone is trying to emulate a sound they associate with someone else's art. I think there are enough that do to account for Stan's position though. Still... I do think "good tone" for amplifiers, violins, etc. has definable properties that players recognize and amp designers are honestly trying to make something good. Not something the same as X or Y. Goodness knows there are enough complaints about amp boominess, buzziness, etc. that it's clear most player know what they DON'T like.

        I also don't buy that the parameters for good guitar tone are governed entirely by a boiled down distillation of exposures. I DO think there are fundamental human sensibilities that have governed us to where we are. Example: Put a person that's never heard anything, ever, in a room and expose them to the sound of a singing bird alternated with the sound of breaking glass and see if one doesn't provoke a more favorable response. Yes, both sounds are provocative and can be used in an artistic way. My point is just that we don't entirely have our preferences spoon fed to us.
        "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

        "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

        "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
        You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Chuck H View Post
          To one extreme the implication is that there is no tone until an artist makes it that way. That a good artist could just as easily break your heart with a Kazoo as with a guitar. And that the quest for refinements in tone creating tools is irrelevant.
          Like Hendrix with a paper and comb on 'Crosstown Traffic". Give the same setup to a cheerleader and you'd probably get 'When the saints come marching in' and cringe.

          Michael Schenker playing a recorder as the main instrument on 'Arbory Hill' comes to mind as well. Almost a Medieval chant.

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          • #20
            I'm sorry... what was the question again?.... I know what Stan is saying too, and agree with some of it. He just hit a nerve when he said that tone doesn't sell records... Maybe it's that it doesn't sell records to most people, me not included.
            Now Trending: China has found a way to turn stupidity into money!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by km6xz View Post
              .... It has always been and will likely be, the most difficult and most ignored part of music, writing songs that means something to strangers.
              Excellent post Stan +1

              Might I expand 'writing' to 'writing or playing'.
              Experience is something you get, just after you really needed it.

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              • #22
                There are two things that sell records, songs and fans. Journeyman artists, ones who have built up a sizable, self sustaining fan base who used to be the main income producers for record labels, often sold records in predictable numbers without having any hits for years, or decades. Those records sell to fans without having major promotion or much radio/internet play. After being in it for decades, seeing the difference between the outside perception of what does and does not sell, and the real dominance of the song in sales....or a dedicated fan, I am not just guessing here. But if you insist that tone overcomes all, have at it. I have way too much direct experience of contrary evidence to accept that unless some very convincing evidence is provided.

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                • #23
                  Ok... Let's get the gloves off... I get that you're perturbed by the insolence of all us guitar wankers that never recorded hits in one of the studios you were involved with. And I get that songs and artistry sell music, not guitars or amps. My point is simply that there is a relevant relationship between the two things and you continue to side step that and reiterate the same position as if negates the other... It doesn't.

                  I'd like to see the electric guitarists of the world making music for sale without amps. Someone has to make these things and there is usually a creative effort involved in the design aspect. Art created in your head isn't accessible or saleable to anyone. Good guitarists choose good amps. These good amps exist BEFORE they can make the selection. The tone of these amps was created BEFORE anyone made them famous. Just like the songs. These things are cousins. Not mutually exclusive to the point where one can exist unhindered without the other.

                  Ok... Better now.
                  "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                  "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                  "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                  You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

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                  • #24
                    Since tone is subjective, I find this argument somewhat silly. That said, a good song is a good song. MTV's Unplugged was an example of stripping away production and showcasing the underlying music. But, in case you think I'm leaning in either direction, I also believe that when someone picks up an instrument to write a song, the tone of that instrument is inspirational as far as what gets written. Keyboard players write differently than acoustic players who write differently than electric players. Clean electric players write differently than dirty electric players who write differently than metal electric players, etc. So,......IMO, you are all correct.
                    "I took a photo of my ohm meter... It didn't help." Enzo 8/20/22

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                    • #25
                      I recall when Santana first came out. great songs like Oye Como Va, Evil Ways, Black Magic Woman. I did then and still do now just hate that square wave-ish tone he got.
                      Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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                      • #26
                        I generally dial in a "tone" that makes me HAPPY to be playing my instrument. When I am happy to be playing my instrument, I play technically better, with less need to be in control of what comes out my speakers. When I am able to focus on getting either my personal feelings across or SERVING THE SONG I happen to be playing at the moment, it resonates with people. They don't pay attention to my "tone" by itself, but they can tell if I am not happy with my "tone" because I get angry, pissy, whatever. There are some instances where I pass the guitar baton to someone else, because I know that the "tone" the songwriter/performer wants is out of my comfort zone, and that someone else can do it better than me. There are also a few select friends who can tell if I am unhappy with my "tone" by noticing how I come off unable to express myself. They usually will ask if my amp is okay, then if my guitar is broken... Go figure.

                        I'm only gonna talk about MY "tone..." I'll get beat up if I talk about anyone else's! And so the circle goes round again...

                        Justin
                        "Wow it's red! That doesn't look like the standard Marshall red. It's more like hooker lipstick/clown nose/poodle pecker red." - Chuck H. -
                        "Of course that means playing **LOUD** , best but useless solution to modern sissy snowflake players." - J.M. Fahey -
                        "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by guitician View Post
                          I'm sorry... what was the question again?.... I know what Stan is saying too, and agree with some of it. He just hit a nerve when he said that tone doesn't sell records... Maybe it's that it doesn't sell records to most people, me not included.
                          Needs more cowbell.

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                          • #28
                            There's also the cultural identity of 'tone' - what sounds right or wrong according to what you were brought up with. We're used to hearing the Western, even-tempered scales, but Westerners often find microtonal instruments unmusical or discordant, whatever the timbral excellence may be in that instrument. Even when you get a musician bridging the gap between cultures (such as Ananda Shankar: Ananda Shankar - Snow Flower - YouTube) there's often a lack of appreciation for the tonality of the instrument - even when a composition itself fits into our perception of musicality.

                            But even where there's a culture of Western influence and composition there are some refreshing attitudes to tone. When I hear African guitarists play I'm constantly amazed by how 'tone' often takes a back seat. Some of these musicians are very poor and are lucky to get their hands on any instrument at all. As an old colleague from Zimbabwe told me; "Poverty is an English word, but you have to live in Africa to know what it really means". So these guys get an old 70s plywood Strat copy with dead and rusty strings, a beat up beginner SS amp with no reverb or effects, then play the hell out of the damn thing. The first time I heard bands playing Jit I was taken aback by the swiftly executed rhythms and chord changes - almost emulating steel drum percussiveness. Yet with a guitar sound with a rough, rasping dryness that wouldn't inspire anyone except through desperation to make music and enjoy playing.

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                            • #29
                              I have yet to see a plausible argument supporting the premise that tone sells records. Covers sell more reliably than new recordings, if tone was the reason for sales, covers with different arrangements, different instruments, in a different key etc should be out of luck. It is safe to say that those who think it is the be all and end all of music probably are not the ones paying for the industry now with record purchases.
                              For example "Yesterday" by the Beatles has been covered more than 3,000 times, including by Joan Baez, Liberace, Sinatra, Elvis, Daffy Duck, En Vogue and Boyz II Men and all sold better than any song recorded by the people who say tone sell records. Can someone identify the "tone" that sold those versions?
                              How about "Cry Me a River" by Julie London from 1955? Covered successfully by Barbra Streisand, Joe Cocker, Aerosmith, Rick Astley, Bjork, Merle Haggard, and Olivia Newton John. Still no tone similarity I can find.
                              What "tone" between mastery do Willie Nelson, Patti LaBelle, Eva Cassidy, Eric Clapton, Chet Atkins, Tori Amos and Israel Kamakawiwo'ole have that made all successful covers of Judy Garland's "Over the Rainbow".

                              Songs sell records.

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                              • #30
                                Commercial sales it's a terrible criterion for determining "good" music. I wager if you look at the best-selling albums of the past fifteen years you won't find more than 25% of them are by rock bands. Clearly, along with "tone" we should discard instrumentalism.

                                Britney Spears is clearly better than Hendrix. Numbers don't lie.

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