Vox Supreme - How Much???????

[Mick Bailey]

I have a one-owner-from-new Vox supreme in for an estimate right now. Just looking at the power chassis got me thinking about boutique SS amps. I like how the Vox is constructed - it pretty much follows their tube amp methods. Also very much like the older Marshall SS amps that still used tube amp construction.

The Vox has lots of hand work, tag boards, point-to-point and was clearly built to last. I really like it. Then I'm thinking what a current 100w SS amp looks like and how much hand work is involved - not much at all. But then again, they don't cost much either.

Now, the Vox was just a production amp. Not a 'custom', 'boutique' or whatever you want to call it. How much was it new? Well, I found the price list for 1967 (this particular amp is 1970) and it was just shy of £272. Using the Bank of England figures for inflation, this comes out in today's money as £4,420.76. How Much????? That's right. Or to make it easy, $6660.54.

Makes you think.

[J M Fahey]

I have a one-owner-from-new Vox supreme in for an estimate right now. Just looking at the power chassis got me thinking about boutique SS amps. I like how the Vox is constructed - it pretty much follows their tube amp methods. Also very much like the older Marshall SS amps that still used tube amp construction.

Of course, they used the then current way to make things ... they knew no other by the way.
And an SS amp was not "a cheap way to replace a tube one" but a new, exciting, futuristic way to do things.
So those amps were built like the others, and carried equivalent price tags.
And when an amp costs like a new motorcycle or an used car, you better use good parts and build it to last.

FWIW my first SS amps (around 1970) were built on "Fender style" eyeletted boards, because that was the technique I was familiar with; doubly so because I was already cloning Fender amps and had lots of bare Pertinax boards , drills and the eyeletting tool.
I still have it, and it gets regular use, 45 years later, building, say, simple boards for crossovers in cabinets, where it does not pay to etch a single PCB

So back to VOX, their using terminal strips or turrets or eyeletted boards is the way they built everything.

I remember very old Carvin SS amps (with driver transformers) or sizeable sections of Shure Vocal Master or Standel power amps being built on ... terminal strips !!!!

By the way, like any old Radio or B&W TV .

The Vox has lots of hand work, tag boards, point-to-point and was clearly built to last. I really like it. Then I'm thinking what a current 100w SS amp looks like and how much hand work is involved - not much at all. But then again, they don't cost much either.

That's the point.
People complains about Behringer so called "junk" but get for $100 what , inflation adjusted (many forget that) used to cost $500 or more.
Many complain about "cheap guitars" but have, say, 15 of them ; when I was young a guy worked many months, up to a year, to buy a real Les Paul, SG or Strat .... it was his only guitar and he played it to death.

I even remember prices: here in Argentina a LP cost some $700/750 ; an SG $500 and a Strat around $ 250 .
Multiply that for about 10X to have current prices

The huge difference between Strat and others came because those guitars were bootlegged by "somebody who traveled to Miami" , he could only bring back 1 glued neck guitar in a hard case without trouble at Customs, bringing 2 meant long arguments and bribing, ... but they could unscrew Fender arm and body and creatively pack a few inside a large bag.
Today bringing a container from China with 1000 guitars inside costs some $7000 and tax is nil, around 10% , so do the math.

Now, the Vox was just a production amp. Not a 'custom', 'boutique' or whatever you want to call it. How much was it new? Well, I found the price list for 1967 (this particular amp is 1970) and it was just shy of £272. Using the Bank of England figures for inflation, this comes out in today's money as £4,420.76. How Much????? That's right. Or to make it easy, $6660.54.

True.

I remember a Dual Showman (with 2 JBL 15"speakers) cost "1000 dollars" and an SVT with one 8x10" cost "1500" ..... to put things in perpective way back then I sold my 400W amps with 2 x 4x12" for U$1500 ... and my house cost U$19000 ... today it's valued around U$400000 CRAZY.

Real inflation is much higher than official statistics, which are washed down by Governments for political reasons.

So yes, way back then it paid to build things right ... because the Market did tolerate it ... today same methods are suicidal and even a modern "boutique" amp is much cheaper (at adjusted prices) than older production amps.

Another factor: in the old days there used to be "fair trade laws" which rigidly set prices, mainly to protect smaller shops from larger ones or chains.

From Wiki:

Fair trade law
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Fair trade (disambiguation).

A fair trade law was a statute in any of various states of the United States that permitted manufacturers the right to specify the minimum retail price of a commodity, a practice known as "price maintenance". Such laws first appeared in 1931 during the Great Depression in the state of California. They were ostensibly intended to protect small businesses to some degree from competition from very large chain stores during a time when small businesses were suffering. Many people objected to this on the grounds that if the manufacturers could set the price, consumers would have to pay more even at large discount stores. The complexity of the market also made the enforcement of these laws almost impractical. As the chain stores became more popular, and bargain prices more common, there was a widespread repeal of the laws in many jurisdictions. By 1975, the laws had been repealed completely.

In a very simplified way, Manufacturers published a "List price" or "MSRP" (manufacturer's suggested retail price) which was designed so even a small shop could make a profit (and so carry the product or brand) , it also protected large area distributors (say, one serviced the East, other the Pacific states, other the Midwest and so on) and the rule of thumb was something like:
for a U$1000 List/MSRP product, the end shop "had" to sell it at that price, the distributor got $650 and the actual manufacturer (or importer) got $500 .
And the end retailer could not buy straight from manufacturer but from the local distributor.
Of course discounts were made to close a deal or to move slow merchandise, but they could not be published.

I clearly remember ads with prices but a few carried: "price too low to advertise, please write or call or better visit the shop"

Then "discount shops" appeared with aggressive price cutting , many were not regular shops but a warehouse in the middle of nowhere selling by catalog.

And then the Internet became popular and changed the rules again.

Just a week ago it was posted here that "Fender is going direct retail".

Which is not that of a game change, I'm quite certain that many internet-only shops, are just a small office and a rubber stamp, publish beautifully made pages (cost zero) , just take orders for merchandise they do not have (they have no physical space anyway) and just pass the order to manufacturer or large distributor ... and just keep 5% of the sale.

Not bad if you have no capital, expenses or overhead.

[Mick Bailey]

We had a similar system to Fair Trade Law in England, called 'Retail Price Maintenance'. Almost everything was the same price everywhere. You bought a chocolate bar and the price was printed on the wrapper, same with many other items. Didn't matter if you bought form a supermarket or family-run corner shop, the price was the same. I lived in a small village of a few hundred people about 6 miles from the nearest large town. We had three greengrocers, a cobbler, two shops selling wool and cotton yarn, two coal merchants, two mini-supermarkets, two hairdressers, a bakery, newsagent, three sweet-shops, a bus depot running local services, two butchers, and a place doing car repairs.

Nowadays, most are gone and the last few remaining don't have many customers. The same in every village.

[J M Fahey]

Today you have a Shopping Center or a huge "Supermarket" which sells anything from groceries (what they are su[pposed to do) plus totally unrelated stuff such as home appliances, TV and electronics, bikes, clothing, even furniture and garden supplies, where everybody drives from 15 miles around.

Most shops in that area die, impossible to match their prices and purchasing power.

Even the car mechanic, the tires shop, a workout/yoga place, a pet grooming shop, whatever, hire some space besides or across the road from the big shopping center.

In Japan, they strictly forbid big retail chains from selling a series of things, so you still have to go to a specialized old style shop for, say, greens or fish or bread or .... the cobbler.

[Dave H]

Real inflation is much higher than official statistics, which are washed down by Governments for political reasons.

I use the beer scale for that. It's more accurate than government figures. Beer is now 40 times the price it was when I first started drinking it and I also now earn about 40 times as much as I did when I started working, so after a lifetime of working I've got nowhere. I'm still as badly off as when I started. I hate inflation.

The small market town where I live has six supermarkets all within five minutes walk from the town centre which has far too many empty shops, pound shops and charity shops. To revitalize the town the council has decided to build a cinema and a few coffee shops down by the river and two new HUGE supermarkets!

[J M Fahey]

I use the beer scale for that. It's more accurate than government figures. Beer is now 40 times the price it was when I first started drinking it and I also now earn about 40 times as much as I did when I started working, so after a lifetime of working I've got nowhere. I'm still as badly off as when I started. I hate inflation.

That's exactly the point.

FWIW I buy everything in bulk, got used to it for manufacturing purposes but apply it to everything else.

For manufacturing the big $$$ incentive is getting a much better price by bypassing at least 1 commercial stage (retailer) and sometimes 2 (distributor) by going straight to Factory or main Importer.
So I buy my general purpose (audio/power) rocker switches by the 500 or 1000 , wall plugs by 300 lots, sheet aluminum by 10 to 40 full sheets, chipboard/MDF/plywood by the 10 full sheet pack, Tolex by the full 100 ft (33 meter) roll, contact or carpenter's adhesive by the 20 liter can , solder in 1kg/2 pound rolls, enamelled wire by the 8/10 kg roll, EI lamination by the 22 or 50Kg box and so on.

I ALWAYS earn "free" money on that, much more than holding Stock, shares, any Financial "paper", and never lose (what inevitably happens sometime with speculative Finance) for the very good reason that the "material stock" I own has a real economic value: being used building amps which I can sell at profit.

And that's the other unbeatable point:
if, as an example, I have, say, Microsoft/Amazon/whatever stock which I bought 1 year ago at, say, $40 a share and it's still trading at $40, I earned nothing and if I want my money back I must sell it at $40 (minus commision) or even, say, $39, so they buy mine instead of other; while if I have, say, $100 worth of wood/tolex/aluminum/iron/parts I can turn that into a head which sells for $200

Yes, it involves working , while putting some dollar bills in a pot and watering them, then expecting them to grow by themselves does not .... ask me which method has a proven success rate

What's the relation with what we were talking before?

That for home use I also do the same, whenever possible:
I buy groceries straight at the distributor which supplies the small shops, meaning factory wrapped trays with 12/24 cans or bags or bottles each of tomato/greenpeas/pasta/beans/oil/soap/deodorant/cocoa/rice/you-name-it , plus 5kg bags of cereal, powdered milk, large boxes of crackers. etc.

And I note prices down or keep invoices.

Boy do I have a REAL inflation index much more accurate than the Government/Banks/Stock Exchange !!!!!!!

FWIW official inflation since 1998 has been some 8:1 , official US Dollar/Peso exchange matches that at 8.5:1 , salaries have also increased 8:1 or 10:1, street "blue" U$ (the one you can actually buy ) is 14:1 ... and real groceries price increase (I still have the old tickets) is 20:1 .

Now which one should I trust?

And yes, the beer index is just as good

[teemuk]

The Vox has lots of hand work, tag boards, point-to-point and was clearly built to last. I really like it.

Looks can be deceiving. These old Vox amps are not known for their magnificient reliability, pretty much on the contrary. In addition, most people who serviced them will tell you that they are a total pain in the butt to work on.

Yes, at the time they were a somewhat a flagship product of the company. Price when new would reflect that, and yes, things generally were much more expensive then because mass production in cheap countries wasn't yet happening in the scale of today's global world. Do also note that in these times tube amps were regarded passing old-fashioned technology whereas transistors and all where the things that allowed men to conquer space. In the early 1970's pretty much no one wanted a Vox AC30 while retrospectively it has proven to be The Vox product of all times.

This catalogue was written when the said Vox amps AND the technology they used was fairly new. If it was written to reflect today's knowledge it would probably come of as "little different"...
http://www.voxshowroom.com/catalogs/ssa.html

[Mick Bailey]

This particular one has lasted pretty well, though - it's had no repair work at all and is still going strong. It's easy to strip down and work on - can't understand why people reckon they're a pain in the butt. Other than the reverb tray.

Durability and standard of construction aren't necessarily synonymous with reliability. Two brands spring to mind and I have direct experience with both; Landrover and Harley-Davidson. Well-made, built to last, but they need plenty of TLC and maintenance. Both of these brands have cost me more in parts and time than Mitsubishi and Kawasaki.

[km6xz]

Weight and size of parts seem to equal strength and "ruggedness" for most consumers so it took a long time for consumers to accept "flimsy plastic bumpers" instead of strong heavy steel, and then only because there was nothing else to buy. They never considered it lowered the cost of everything, medical costs, insurance, fuel, maintenance, corrosion, and lowered accident death rates considerably. The US had twice the death rate driving in mid 50s than now, when there are 6 times as many miles total driven. Much of that reduced death was due to lighter weight cars with better engineering with collapsing zones that absorbed energy slowly and passed less to the passenger area. Some things do not last as long physically but they require a lot less maintenance and acquisition costs are a fraction of what they would have been 50 years ago for devices or products with much less functionality and worse performance. The Land Rover lasts a long time but is a maintenance headache compared to the cheaper and longer lasting Toyota FJ-40 which sells for more used than new. Harley's need a lot more maintenance than other lighter bikes which have higher performance. The only people who seem to actually know how reliable gear is are the warranty and parts department managers in the industry. As techs we never see the most reliable units and some of the lightest weight outlast big iron like SVT's between maintenance. Although more Behringers are sold than anything, I see a lot more Ampeg, Marshall and Mesa's than Bugera amps. Solid-State amps are generally seen less than tube amp. For me, the most reliable amp I know of is the little ZT LunchBox amps because I have not seen one return of those I have imported and sold here. The least reliable in terms of frequency of repairs have to be the boutique amps and the well built heavy Ampeg. Look inside and any player would say the Ampeg is the best built but light weight amps such as the cheesy build Hartke amps run circles around them for just working the most hours between maintenance.
This mistaken assumption that weight and metal cases mean "rugged" held by consumers can be seen in many products. I am a camera guy and have nice pro style gear. It is all heavy and expensive and high performance. Amateurs say the heavy gear is more rugged yet there is not more frequency of repair for cheaper all plastic cameras and no rash of reports of them falling apart. A heavy camera with
rugged all magnesium case needs to be stronger just to support the added weight. I drop my most rugged pro camera 5 feet to the floor, I am expecting $1000 repair bills. I dropped my smartphone the same distance weekly and expect no damage. For touring use, light weight gear require less protection and less strong roadcases than large heavy gear and handle shock and vibration better. So reliability is related to engineering more than the weight or construction style.

[Mick Bailey]

Ease of repair and availability of parts are key factors to durability. Plus the desire to want to continue to own and use a particular item, whatever it may be. Durability, sadly, is low on most people's agenda when it comes to buying. The laptop I'm using right now is exactly 15 years old this month. Last week I replaced the hinges, but have no plans to replace it for another model. It has zero market value. My house telephone was made of finger-jointed oak long before we had an automatic exchange. It still works today and when we were struck by lightning two years ago it survived, when every other piece of gear that was plugged into the wall was carbonized. Its around 80 years old.

The Dualit toaster is a good example of durability. Sturdy, replaceable components with the intention of a long-life. Mine is about 40 years old. In the 90s they became a fashion item but I suspect the people interested in passing fashions aren't going to keep anything for long before the next 'must-have' comes along. Out of interest I bought a cheap toaster from Ikea a few years ago, as an impulse buy. Cheap, cheerful, throw-away. It cost £7 and made better toast than the Dualit, but ended up as landfill after two years.

I don't consider that most people are bothered about the lifespan of the products they buy. Neither are they interested in what they're made from, how they're made or whether they can be serviced. When I go down to my local tip (dump, recycling centre, or whatever term you want to use) I'm astonished at the sheer waste; items that can easily and cheaply be repaired. By the thousand. Many of those items are serviceable just as they are. I got a bicycle that a guy was unloading from his car - about 7 years ago. It looked brand new. I jokingly said "you're not throwing that away, are you?" And he was. I asked him what was wrong with it and he said "We don't want it any more". It was actually unridden and has been in constant use since.

I'm also interested in photography, and in particular Russian cameras from the 50s and 60s (and quite a few 70s models too). I make and fit new focal-plane shutters, strip them, rebuild them and time them. Keep them going, keep using them. But now I see early digital cameras failing - these first Leicas, for instance. Because the resolution is unfashionably low and the comparative cost of repair so high, they get left in a drawer or thrown out. The lenses are pin-sharp and the colour rendering excellent. That's a good case of electronics, fashion and consumer expectation rapidly making the most well-made items obsolete.

[teemuk]

Weight and size of parts seem to equal strength and "ruggedness" for most consumers so it took a long time for consumers to accept "flimsy plastic bumpers" instead of strong heavy steel, and then only because there was nothing else to buy.

Far fetched example but so on point.

Let's not even get to the issue of wood-based vs. plastic speaker cabinets. And particularly trying to market the latter for guitarists.

It is common marketing tactique to brainwash people to buy image instead of something that is actually meaningful and concrete. For guitarists the concept of a plastic speaker cabinet would likely be one or several of the following 1) Fragile/flimsy 2) "Artifical" sounding / "unorganic" 3) Cheap. Guys running hired sound and such would likely fullheartedly disagree on all points. ;-)

[km6xz]

Carbon Fiber cabinets and drivers with electro-magnets would be loved by touring sound companies but consumers would probably reject them because they are too light to handle bass and not have that "natural resonant sound of the finest aged" particleboard.

[oc disorder]

Without wishing to derail the discussion it goes without saying that I'm sure we are grateful to techs that bring back these conversation pieces (?) from yesteryear and spend an inordinate amount of time , admittedly a labour of love investigating and providing the means for us mere mortals to restore some ourselves.
RG for instance in relation to Vox. A site I found only recently by Chris Devine also reflects this and serves as a good example.

Vox_Supreme

[Mick Bailey]

+1. I have a high regard for RG and Chris Devine. I've used Chris's information a lot for the Golden Eagle which I restored back to regular gig-worthy condition. And it sounds delightful.

If we disregard these amps, however flawed or 'worthless' they may be, we lose our history.