Are we wimps or just getting old?

[Leo_Gnardo]

I think one of the main differences between lifting something when you're 20, or handling the same weight when you're in your 50s is the attitude to injury; when you're 20 you think you'll get better if you hurt your back. When you're 50 you think you won't.

Around 50 is when I started to notice that injuries & soreness from overexertion didn't show up until about 2 days after the event that caused 'em. Then I had to rack my brain to remember what it was I did to hurt myself. I expect that's the way it is with other folks too.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I was with a Canadian band a little while. They had a tiny 6 channel Traynor PA mixer, but they had a 100 watt something or other with a mic in front of the kick drum, and its own speaker in front of the stage. They were innovators.

Yeah that's what one of my college bands had, the Traynor solid state 6-pack, wow we were ahead of the curve! You'd be amazed how much volume it would get out of a pair of Altec speakers. And one of my English friends turned me on to the notion of mic'ing up the kick drum & putting that thru a spare bass amp, still a good workaround for a club band with a little "speakers on sticks" PA. The only person using one of those Marshall 8x12 coffins was Robin Trower, but for him the roadies' effort was worth it. Saw it in a photo of Procol Harum's stage right about then, 1970. Legend has it Pete Townsend had one, and his road crew sawed it in half.

[Jazz P Bass]

Being over 50, yeah, it takes a couple of days.

Saturday, the family took an excursion to the Statue of Liberty.

Purchased tickets for The Crown.

Whoee.
354 steps.

Today I am feeling it.

[nsubulysses]

I'm from a different era so I don't know how relevent it is to add this but here it goes

Almost all the people I know who play in modern heavy metal/punk/noise/rock bands worships and wants gear from teh 70s power wars era. Modern heavy music is extremely loud. I play in a band and I am the only guitarist. We wanted to get a bass player but it never worked out so I just play 3 heads and 3 cabs -- two heads and two 4x12s for left and right guitar and an Acoustic 370 with it's 1x18 301 cab for "bass," the 301 cab is just a low pass filter so all the highs get cut anyway.

I battle soundguys at all these stupid venues, almost constantly. Legit venues that hold hundreds of people! Once in a while they understand and are ok, but most of the time they're dumbfounded and annoyed. I'm constantly asked to turn down. I never do. Even our singer says don't turn down. He'd rather play a crushing show with less vocals then play quiet and hear them loud and clear.

We play at clubs and much of the time the vocals are a wash. Conversely we can we play house shows and art spaces with some shitty $300 PA that punks bought, that barely works, and you can almost always hear the vocals. I'm talking two 1x12s with a tweeter on a stand. It's because the sound guy is pissed and won't work with you even though they have huge PA SYSTEM capable of thousands of watts. This is not right and is the one of the many reasons people don't like going to venues and would prefer to attend shows at independent spaces. Of course the venues just use the bands to push beer sales as well, which is annoying. You can buy one beer for the cost of a 6-pack. DIY spots are the best. I was at a venue a few weeks ago to see Geto Boys and a whiskey neat was $12. I played a place a few weeks ago that had a whiskey special for $5. I ordered it on the rocks. The rocks were $2.

Ok you can all yell at me now.

I always wear earplugs and enjoy feeling the floor shake. That is half the point of my band. Nothing is more fun than a loud show with no rules where you don't get ripped off.

[nsubulysses]

Almost all the people I know who play in modern heavy metal/punk/noise/rock bands worships and wants gear from teh 70s power wars era. Modern heavy music is extremely loud.

Also I know modern heavy music is an aside from this thread. I guess in my perspectice most of the people I see play in bands are between 20 and 40, and mostly play some sort of loud, modern, rock music. I know it's different if there are some 50 or 60 year olds up there playing a show for fun, and playing a music style from a different era. That is all fine and enjoyable enough of course. But the people that are between 20 and 40 are mostly the ones that are touring and recording, playing original music, having labels put out their albums etc. I wonder if modern music has "become" this almost solely for the fact that most of all the best amps were made in the 60s and 70s, so people want those amps for thier good sound, so they are totally loud.

[jbltwin1]

At 61, I'm still playing but the equipment is SO much smaller. These days, my main amp is a Vox little night train. 15 watts, modded and all tube. A 1x12 cab that I can lift with three fingers and I am set. Of course, the keyboards that I play half the time are a little worse but the gigs I do now are SO much quieter that not much more is required. Mike.

[Enzo]

One needs to decide if we are putting on a show for the enjoyment of the audience, or if we are up there to stroke our egos as guitar gods.

"I'll never turn down" is the mantra of someone who doesn't care what the mix sounds like nor what the listening experience is for the crowd. That full Marshall stack of 4x12s may make you feel like Eddie Van Halen, but for someone in front of you, it is ear shattering and drowns out everything else. For someone off to the side it won't be as loud and the mix will be different. When the guitar is screaming loud, it makes the monitors harder to hear, so we turn them up until we now have to fight feedback all night. Not very professional.

That is why the guitar is in the PA mix. 50 years ago, an 8-channel PA was king. Four vocal mics and it is half used. Maybe a couple on the drums and a keyboard mic, and there it is, all through 100 watts and a pair of Eliminators. Nowdays 16-24-32 channel PAs are common as are thousands of watts of speaker power. Reasonable volume guitar miced into the PA allows EVEN sound all over the venue. The people stage left and stage right hear it just as well as the guy out right in front of your stack. You want it 3000 watts loud? You got it. Just all three thousand watts don't have to come from your stack. And you have the channels for it in your mixer.

You want to be super loud? Fine, aim it at YOU, not the house. Put a laid back speaker in front of you, next to your monitor, or have the stack on the side aiming across at you. Anything but right at table 4.

it isn't enough to say "we could still hear the vocals", it needs to be a good mix. If your singer thinks it is a better show if he can't be heard as long as the guitar is deafening, well, I don't know how to defend that.

[nsubulysses]

But hey some things never change right ??

You all set the trend and we're just trying to follow in your footsteps

[nsubulysses]

One needs to decide if we are putting on a show for the enjoyment of the audience, or if we are up there to stroke our egos as guitar gods.

"I'll never turn down" is the mantra of someone who doesn't care what the mix sounds like nor what the listening experience is for the crowd. That full Marshall stack of 4x12s may make you feel like Eddie Van Halen, but for someone in front of you, it is ear shattering and drowns out everything else. For someone off to the side it won't be as loud and the mix will be different. When the guitar is screaming loud, it makes the monitors harder to hear, so we turn them up until we now have to fight feedback all night. Not very professional.

That is why the guitar is in the PA mix. 50 years ago, an 8-channel PA was king. Four vocal mics and it is half used. Maybe a couple on the drums and a keyboard mic, and there it is, all through 100 watts and a pair of Eliminators. Nowdays 16-24-32 channel PAs are common as are thousands of watts of speaker power. Reasonable volume guitar miced into the PA allows EVEN sound all over the venue. The people stage left and stage right hear it just as well as the guy out right in front of your stack. You want it 3000 watts loud? You got it. Just all three thousand watts don't have to come from your stack. And you have the channels for it in your mixer.

You want to be super loud? Fine, aim it at YOU, not the house. Put a laid back speaker in front of you, next to your monitor, or have the stack on the side aiming across at you. Anything but right at table 4.

it isn't enough to say "we could still hear the vocals", it needs to be a good mix. If your singer thinks it is a better show if he can't be heard as long as the guitar is deafening, well, I don't know how to defend that.

Enzo, I agree with you totally, and I think you are right, but this literally just does not apply to certain realms of modern music. If it wasn't loud and deafening with loads of harsh feedback people wouldn't go. Well, my people, I mean. That is part of the draw. I always stand in front of 2 cabs so I get as much feedback as possible.

[Enzo]

The point wasn't how loud you get, it is about how you go about doing it. That 3000-5000 watt PA can be a hell of a lot louder for the crowd than your stack. I can get more gain than my pickups can stand with a small amp right in front of me.

[The Dude]

When I was much younger, I remember carrying around empty cabinets just to make it look like we had more gear. Those days are long gone. If we don't absolutely need it, it stays home.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I'm from a different era so I don't know how relevent it is to add this but here it goes

<snip>

I played a place a few weeks ago that had a whiskey special for $5. I ordered it on the rocks. The rocks were $2.

Ok you can all yell at me now.

I always wear earplugs and enjoy feeling the floor shake. That is half the point of my band. Nothing is more fun than a loud show with no rules where you don't get ripped off.

That's outrageous and unacceptable ! ! !

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They charged you two bucks for a couple of ICE CUBES ?!?!?!

[J M Fahey]

we just can't do the heavy stuff anymore. Are we wimps?

No, we are old, not the same.

[The Dude]

......I was at a venue a few weeks ago to see Geto Boys and a whiskey neat was $12. I played a place a few weeks ago that had a whiskey special for $5. I ordered it on the rocks. The rocks were $2......

Some time ago one of my bands was playing a motel bar. Our keyboard player and I bellied up to the bar on a break. Here's the conversation.

Keyboard Player, "I'll take a Jim Beam rocks."
Bartender Lady, "(Befuddled) What?"
Keyboard Player, "Jim Beam,......on the rocks."
Bartender Lady, "What's in that?"

[Jazz P Bass]

Blonde, right?