wireless guitar systems

[Richard S]

Anyone have experience with the Samsun TR-2A wireless guitar system channel 3 vhf 49.36MHz ?

[Enzo]

In what regard, what do you want to know?

All the wireless systems work, and the frequency itself doesn't matter a lot. However, it is always possible that in a particular area some other wireless service COLD be on the same frequency. If the next door neighbor's garage door opener works on the same channel, you will hear it whenever he activates his door while you are playing. But 300 yards away, it wouldn't.

[Richard S]

In what regard, what do you want to know?

All the wireless systems work, and the frequency itself doesn't matter a lot. However, it is always possible that in a particular area some other wireless service COLD be on the same frequency. If the next door neighbor's garage door opener works on the same channel, you will hear it whenever he activates his door while you are playing. But 300 yards away, it wouldn't.

I couldn't find any info on the net.
I'm curious about quality of performance and if replacing the missing antenna is worth it.

[Enzo]

Is replacing the missing antenna worth it? How well does your TV work without an antenna? Or take the antenna off your car radio. Of course you need the antenna.

The antenna is a specific length, which has to do with wavelengths of the RF signal. But beyond that, no antenna means weak reception, and that would translate into more drop outs, noisier reception, shorter range.

A typical wireless has a reliable range of up to maybe 300 feet, which in most venues is a long way. Most guys only need to get from the guitar to the amp, so what, maybe 20 feet?

More advanced systems use "diversity" reception. Two antennas, spaced a quarter wave apart, two receivers inside. The system receives the transmitted signal on both receiver circuits, and uses whichever one is stronger. usually it sits on one, but if you move around a lot, sometimes reflected radio waves can cause brief signal drops, so the second receiver is at a different RF phase relation and so when one drops out the other is strong. You never hear it switching back and forth.

A single antenna system lacks diversity, but in almost every situation, placement of the receiver solves any problem. Where this mainly causes issues is wireless mics with the receiver back at the mix station some distance away.

[Usable Thought]

I'm curious about quality of performance and if replacing the missing antenna is worth it.

Outside of transmission issues (range and interference), what I'd be concerned about is, does it sound good enough to satisfy or is it just a toy? Musical quality in wireless guitar systems depends mostly on how broad/narrow, complete/incomplete the frequency response is. Line 6 is very good this way. Many others that seem well-made & cost significantly less are awful - at first they sound clear which seems good until you A/B and realize how much tone they are dropping. Basically a leaner signal is cheaper to transmit. Also, beware longtime wifi audio vendors (Samson is a good example, in fact) whose main product line is mics for speech or other PA purposes & for whom guitar is a relatively new sideline - same reason. Also if this is a vintage unit (which would explain lack of info on web) I would not bother w/it - same reason. I write from experience.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I couldn't find any info on the net.
I'm curious about quality of performance and if replacing the missing antenna is worth it.

49 MHz IIRC was common for home wireless telephones.

If yours is an old wireless set, something to consider is there's been a reassignment of usable frequencies over the last decade or so. If yours is a frequency that is now assigned to emergency (police, ambulance, fire etc) or military, you could get into a speck of trouble using your gear. I'm sure someone here can direct you to information on what frequencies are verboten. Or you could email the manufacturer or check with FCC. As far as trouble, it's not likely FCC would do more than confiscate your equipment if you insisted on operating it. I really don't think they'd fine you or throw you in jail. It's worth an inquiry anyway.

[J M Fahey]

^^^^^^ that.

A couple questions come to my mind:

1) a couple years ago, some previously free wireless mic frequencies were "reassigned" so a lot of very high quality old stuff became "unsellable" in US .
How do I know?
Because such stuff was dumped here in Argentina and doubtlessly all over the World.
To boot, at inflated prices, based on "the same wireless used by Yngwie Malmsteen !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and similar cr*p .

2) that said,

the 49 MHz band also used by cordless telephones, toys, and baby monitors

49 Mhz Radios

The 49 Mhz band is a widely-used consumer radio band, primarily for cordless phones. There are 10 narrow-band FM channels between 49.67 and 50.00 Mhz assigned to the band (Refer to Appendix C). The band is relatively noise-free in non-industrial areas, though the millions of cordless phones means plenty of interference in highly urban settings. Power output is specified by field strength, 10,000 uVolts/meter at 3 meters, and translates to a few milliwatts. The band is most useful for short-range communications.

so in a nutshell: it's not a PRO system, but might work well within a few yards, a regular Club or Church stage.

As of the antenna, if you lost the original one, maybe there is a generic type available (Radio Shack?) , after all it's a very popular band; and if not or too expensive, just get the proper connector and make one out of the proper length of copper wire.

[Jazz P Bass]

698-806MHz is the band that has neen reassigned.

pdf_us_fcc_700mhz_faq.pdf

[Leo_Gnardo]

As of the antenna, if you lost the original one, maybe there is a generic type available (Radio Shack?) , after all it's a very popular band; and if not or too expensive, just get the proper connector and make one out of the proper length of copper wire.

EZ cheezy then, replacement antenna for a 49 MHz wireless phone should do fine.

[Enzo]

I wouldn't pick on Samson, I am not sure what "relatively new sideline" means, but Samson, and Audio Technica, Nady, Shure, and others, have been making wireless units for both PA use (mics) and guitar for at least the last 30 years I have been servicing them. Mics have a lower level signal, but the transmitter packs have attenuation in the inputs, so that is not an issue. bandwidth is not an issue either. If it has the bandwidth for a mic signal, it has enough for the more limited guitar signal. It is just a radio, it has no idea where the signal comes from or goes. Narrow bandwidth or wide, it is still just a radio.


Unless you interfere with a commercial service, it is unlikely the FCC will even hear of you, and if they do get a complain, and it somehow identifies you, most likely you get a letter from them telling you to cease using it. That means the commercial c=service has to be within the limited range of your transmitter. There is a very simple test: Leave the transmitter pack OFF, turn on the receiver, connect it to a PA, turn dwn the squelch, and let it run. If you don't hear any signal coming in, it is likely none exists in your area on that channel, and so just as likely your transmitter will not interfere with someone else.

I am not advocating breaking the law, just looking at it realistically. I am not aware of anyone using a wireless anything in a former channel band. that got "busted" by the FCC for interference.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I wouldn't pick on Samson, I am not sure what "relatively new sideline" means, but Samson, and Audio Technica, Nady, Shure, and others, have been making wireless units for both PA use (mics) and guitar for at least the last 30 years I have been servicing them.

First Samson guitar wireless I ran across was 1992, they'd been in the biz a couple years. Perhaps their customer service has improved since then. I needed spare antennae, input cables, battery covers but their shop phone was taken off the hook at 8AM and left off the hook until 6PM. iow, "Don't bother us." I got a hold of Samson's #1 guy thru channels, he wasn't pleased at having to talk to a peasant, but took my order anyway. They delivered a bill with $25 added for "special handling" but never delivered parts. Not too hard to improve from that, is it? Now you have email, plus if they pizz you off you can tweet & other ways you can express displeasure. I've avoided Samson and recommended others do the same since 1992. Let's hope they're more on the ball by now, let 'em PROVE IT.

If you need a 49 MHz antenna you can likely find one thru a place like MCM, cheap. Or wangle a length of wire in there. Or take an antenna from a broken or garage sale home wireless phone, check your local Salvation Army or other jumble store. Probably not worth going thru too much trouble & expense for such a repair.

Samson = Sam's son. Sam Ash. Sonny needed something to do, so they opened their proprietary made-in-far-east product line, for better or worse. Good luck!

[Enzo]

Even if we started at 1992, that is still 24 years, hardly a newcomer.

[g1]

That unit is ancient. Someone who had one listed dated it at 1983.
Is it this one? Samson TR 2A Wireless Guitar System Channel 3 VHF 49 860 MHz MIJ | eBay

If you can get an antenna for 5 or 10 bucks, then I would try it and see how it is for interference and noise issues/dropouts. Being such an early commercial unit I wouldn't expect a lot. And another consideration, battery consumption will be much higher than a modern unit.

[Usable Thought]

I wouldn't pick on Samson, I am not sure what "relatively new sideline" means, but Samson, and Audio Technica, Nady, Shure, and others, have been making wireless units for both PA use (mics) and guitar for at least the last 30 years I have been servicing them. Mics have a lower level signal, but the transmitter packs have attenuation in the inputs, so that is not an issue. bandwidth is not an issue either. If it has the bandwidth for a mic signal, it has enough for the more limited guitar signal. It is just a radio, it has no idea where the signal comes from or goes. Narrow bandwidth or wide, it is still just a radio.

I hold to my comment. Not picking on them or similar companies - Samson's gear for example seems solidly made these days (though not being a tech I have not had to service them, which Leo_Gnardo seems to indicate has not always been a joy). So I'm not aiming to disrespect them. Nor do I know about radio transmission.

But I do have experience along 2 lines w/these systems:

1. Checking out Samson wifi for speech dictation - their top-of-the-line "Airline" maybe 5 or 6 years ago, which can be used for speech dictation but also many other purposes, vs. the many non-wireless options I was more used to, e.g. the dictation mics made specifically for that purpose by Parrot, Sennheiser, and others. And I can say that for speech, the Samson unit was very good.
2. Checking out Audio-Technica's "System 8" last year (2015) & then, upon being very disappointed despite the unit seeming well-built, doing the additonal research necessary to understand why it performed so poorly in terms of tone quality. That was my "aha" moment where I realized what these established companies do wrong vs. relative newcomers like Line 6.

There's a reason Line 6 is wildly more popular and better reviewed for guitar, not speech versus Samson, Audio-Technica, etc. And it has to do with what I mentioned. I can't put it detailed technical terms as an EE or tech could - but the results are audible and obvious to end-users. Here is what I wrote in a note to myself back in June 2015:

I tried a $100 analog unit from Audio-Technica. Well made, no noise. However, although at first it sounded good, an A-B comparison revealed it was simplifying the guitar tone. This may happen for either of two reasons: the "compander" part of the gear, used to compress and then re-expand the audio signal on its way through the RF signal, may be taking away some of the tone; or else it's just that the frequency spectrum for the RF is only 80hz-12kz, and the harmonics for a guitar signal go above 12khz even if they are not very loud compared to the fundamentals.

My guess is, a good digital wifi would work very well. Reviews for the Line6 guitar wifi, for example, are very positive; the only problems are that some users have found their units quit after a year. But Line6 has apparently been good in sending them a repaired or new unit when that happens. In terms of basic performance, supposedly it's very clear; and the Line6 unit in particular has ways to add back "cord tone" if you want. Or you can just keep it completely clear and modify your tone elsewhere.

Today I would bet it's most likely the compander was at fault with the System 8 - my hearing isn't so good in my middle age that I can brag about how I can hear all these extended harmonics way above 12Khz!

Anyway that was Audio-Technica I tried, but I did some fairly exhaustively reading (my money was at risk) on specs and reviews and tech reviews for many other models, including Line 6 and Samson and Shure etc. The weakness in my argument is, I never actually tried Line 6 myself - the money was just too much at the time for me to bother; but I have read enough reviews asserting its technology is head and shoulders above lower-priced units from companies such as Audio Technica and Samson to believe that my experience w/Audio Technica is what many people experience and relates to why so many guitarists gravitate to Line 6. I don't remember how companies like Shure and Sennheiser fared vs. Line 6 in my reading. I assume Line 6 has some legit competitors by now but haven't kept up.

That's not to say that maybe current models by Samson and others haven't improved - maybe they have. But from looking at their specs & marketing materials last year, I came to believe (and there is no hard evidence either for or against this) that most likely, what they were doing was repackaging their speech gear to allegedly do music. And the algorithms they could get away with for speech (the companders, in other words) weren't up to snuff for music. So put it this way - it's not the radio signal, but what goes out over the radio signal.

[Enzo]

If you have tried various systems, detect differences, and have preferences, more power to you. MY "beef" was rationalizing that the differences you hear were due to them being either new to the industry segment (they are not) or that they were somehow concentrating on audio versus guitar (and I don't accept that either). I would accept that each design met its design goal, and that the teams at the various manufacturers may have had different ideas of what was acceptable performance.