Want to add Horn to bass amp

[vintagekiki]

Speaker Crossover Calculators

http://www.v-cap.com/speaker-crossover-calculator.php

[Richard]

What if the existing 10" is replaced by this one with a whizzer cone?
US Speaker - Eminence Legend B102 bass guitar 10" whizzer cone speaker. Great upgrade or replacement for bass cabinets.
Regarding comments about the off axis response, I have heard that when the wavelength is smaller than the diameter of the diaphragm there is significantly less dispersion. With a 10" speaker that would be about 1200 Hz. I imagine different shapes of dustcaps and enclosures have an effect on this.

Regarding the efficiency, if a doubling of power yields a 3dB increase does that mean that 92dB efficient speakers driven by a 350 watt amp are the same loudness as 98dB efficient speakers and a 87.5 watt amp?

[J M Fahey]

Regarding the efficiency, if a doubling of power yields a 3dB increase does that mean that 92dB efficient speakers driven by a 350 watt amp are the same loudness as 98dB efficient speakers and a 87.5 watt amp?

Yes.
Thatīs why old "135W" (actually somewhat above 100W) Fender Bassman driving 2 REAL 101 dB JBL D140 filled the stage while nowadays 350W 2 x 10" Fender Rumble:

So I picked up one of these Fender Rumble 350watt 2x10 combos for $399 brand new from GC. It sounded great and loud when practicing alone but as soon as I brought it to the rehearsal and the drummer started playing and the guitarist fired up his tube amp, but bass sound was all but gone from the mix. I had to turn my volume all the way up to max and then I could barely hear myself.
Now, I'm going back to the head/cab route , and keeping this is as an (expensive) practice amp for home.
Just figured I'd share my 2 cents in case anyone else was thinking of using a 350watt 2x10 combo for rehearsals/gigs. For me, it just didn't work out.

versus:

I don't think the wattage is the problem - it's trying to make a mere 2 tens get the job done in that situation... I've played in plenty of loud rock bands with 300 watts or even less, and still been OK - but NOT with only a 210...

and:

That is the problem with scaling down a rig, it just doesn't do the job. I love the larger Fender Pro series heads and cabs. I use the Tb1200 and a 215Pro cab as well as the larger 810Pro. I am sure a lot of other members will offer their solutions but it does cost more to get something that is really felt and heard, no matther what the brand is

All quotes from: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/fen...earsal.754635/

Oh well.

[vintagekiki]

Fender Cabinet Schematic

http://support.fender.com/schematics/bass_amplifiers/Rumble_2x8_cabinet_Rev-A.pdf

http://support.fender.com/schematics/bass_amplifiers/Rumble_112_cabinet_Rev-A.pdf

http://support.fender.com/schematics/bass_amplifiers/Rumble_410_cabinet_2010_schematic_Rev-A.pdf

http://support.fender.com/schematics/bass_amplifiers/215PRO_service_manual.pdf

http://support.fender.com/schematics/bass_amplifiers/610PRO_schematic_Rev-B.pdf

http://support.fender.com/schematics/bass_amplifiers/810PRO_schematic_Rev-B.pdf

http://support.fender.com/schematics/bass_amplifiers/Bassman_410_PROSL_FBA_2002-2008_Rev-B.pdf

http://support.fender.com/schematics/keyboard_amplifiers/KXR_60_schematic.pdf
Horn 049260 page 1 schematic position C1

http://support.fender.com/schematics/keyboard_amplifiers/KXR_100_schematic.pdf
Horn 028813 page 1 schematic position C1

http://support.fender.com/schematics/keyboard_amplifiers/KXR_200_schematic.pdf
Horn 028813 page 1 schematic position C2

http://support.fender.com/schematics/keyboard_amplifiers/Keyboard_200_SFX_schematic.pdf
Horn page 3 schematic position D2

[Justin Thomas]

And why my 50W Bassman (1967) w. Fender 1968 2X15" gets more complaints from sound guys about being too loud, while audience members invariably say it SOUNDS <better>, "alive," inspiring, organic, "like an actual voice," and other such things, beyond just a stupid and facile "wow, the 'bass' sounds good!" NO ONE in the listening audience has ever complained. They usually ask for more, because (I guess) people are starving for actual bass with something to say. You have to be able to tell the notes apart for that...

HEY BASS PLAYERS: YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY!
But I think Juan and I have been saying that's for years to no avail... so, as Juan says,

"Oh well."

Justin

[olddawg]

And why my 50W Bassman (1967) w. Fender 1968 2X15" gets more complaints from sound guys about being too loud, while audience members invariably say it SOUNDS <better>, "alive," inspiring, organic, "like an actual voice," and other such things, beyond just a stupid and facile "wow, the 'bass' sounds good!" NO ONE in the listening audience has ever complained. They usually ask for more, because (I guess) people are starving for actual bass with something to say. You have to be able to tell the notes apart for that...

HEY BASS PLAYERS: YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG WAY!
But I think Juan and I have been saying that's for years to no avail... so, as Juan says,

"Oh well."

Justin

It depends on the application. A lot of bassist I play with use a "scalable" rig. Generally it's a single "15 cab and a 2x10" or 4x10" on top of that and a 350 watt Class D amp. Small gigs and practice they bring the 2x10" and usually DI through the PA in both cases. BUT I have played some low volume gigs with a good live drummer where the bassist used a Fender Rumble 60 or equivalent. I must admit, whatever they are using I prefer a "15. IMHO those 2x10" cabs like Mark Bass uses get most of their oomf from cone throw. It may spec out but really isn't the same in practice. AND Class D amps don't have the "beef" that Class AB amps have. I remember decades ago my bass player had an old Acoustic 371. That beast had an 18" ( I think, may have been a 15) and a 12" mounted on the side that was essentially a stage monitor. He switched to a 200 watt Hiwatt half stack after that. The old rule of thumb was the bass was 2x the power of the guitar amps and the PA was double that for clubs. Price per watt has become so cheap that all bets are off nowadays. Quilter has 200 watt guitar amps that are 200 watts and weigh 4 lbs. WTF do you need 200 watts for in a club? Anyway, it's always a compromise. Tone is in the hands. What's important is balance and articulation no matter what you use. Most young bassists in my neighborhood want an Ampeg SVT to drive the crowd out of the room with. Most sound guys mix very bass heavy from doing raggae shows. Lol.

[Justin Thomas]

This is all my opinion, because I can't measure any of it, and there's no scientific basis for it, it's all just in what I hear. Bass rigs nowadays to me all sound synthetic and plastic. It's TOO clean. Yeah, it's REALLY loud, but there's so little mids and highs. It sounds so synthetic. I don't know whether it's players or soundmen or what, but it all sounds like a dull thump. It's like HDTV to me - too much "def."

I'd love to have a smaller Bassman cabinet, as in a 2x12" or 2x10" but finances don't allow a period-correct addition. And I'd also rather play a modern low-powered bass amp through efficient speakers that are made "old-style," before "bass" speakers came about. The pinnacle of "bass sound" to me was in the early 80s or before - Live at Leeds, Moving Pictures, etc. I can't speak for the operating class or any of the technical side of it, but I just really don't like the sound. Yeah, it's worth the weight to sound good, to me. The imperfections and "flaws" are what made the sound great, imho. And most of the younger guys I've let use my stuff will turn down the house's bass amp and use my old piece of junk. They realize it really DOES impart a flavor, or maybe it lets themselves shine through, without all the built-in limiting, compression, blah blah blah...

If I need to make my Baseman louder, that's why I added a line out as far down the signal chain as possible. Never had anyone complain about "noise."

Agree - why anyone needs 200W at club levels is beyond me, but they're probably using the logic that it actually WILL sound the same on one as it does at ten... which is also sad. It's still not the same as blasting a 5-20W amp and using just a volume pedal or knob... and for the record, I'm not a bassist. I'm a guitar player who plays bass. A lot of the same principles of guitar playing apply to Bass for me...

Justin

[olddawg]

This is all my opinion, because I can't measure any of it, and there's no scientific basis for it, it's all just in what I hear. Bass rigs nowadays to me all sound synthetic and plastic. It's TOO clean. Yeah, it's REALLY loud, but there's so little mids and highs. It sounds so synthetic. I don't know whether it's players or soundmen or what, but it all sounds like a dull thump. It's like HDTV to me - too much "def."

I'd love to have a smaller Bassman cabinet, as in a 2x12" or 2x10" but finances don't allow a period-correct addition. And I'd also rather play a modern low-powered bass amp through efficient speakers that are made "old-style," before "bass" speakers came about. The pinnacle of "bass sound" to me was in the early 80s or before - Live at Leeds, Moving Pictures, etc. I can't speak for the operating class or any of the technical side of it, but I just really don't like the sound. Yeah, it's worth the weight to sound good, to me. The imperfections and "flaws" are what made the sound great, imho. And most of the younger guys I've let use my stuff will turn down the house's bass amp and use my old piece of junk. They realize it really DOES impart a flavor, or maybe it lets themselves shine through, without all the built-in limiting, compression, blah blah blah...

If I need to make my Baseman louder, that's why I added a line out as far down the signal chain as possible. Never had anyone complain about "noise."

Agree - why anyone needs 200W at club levels is beyond me, but they're probably using the logic that it actually WILL sound the same on one as it does at ten... which is also sad. It's still not the same as blasting a 5-20W amp and using just a volume pedal or knob... and for the record, I'm not a bassist. I'm a guitar player who plays bass. A lot of the same principles of guitar playing apply to Bass for me...

Justin

Yeah... I'm a guitarist that occasionally plays bass as well. It's amusing to me that many people think that "better" (meaning expensive) equipment will make them play better. I have about $300 invested on my whole bass rig. I lend it out more than I use it. I have a Carvin single 15" cab loaded with an EV in it that I traded for a 2x12" cab I got for free driven by a 450 watt Behringer ($199 MF Stupid deal) SVT clone. I took the badges off of both.... None the wiser. No one bitches. I paid $100 (had an internal wiring problem) for the Aria Pro II bass that is basically a P Bass clone with an additional Jazz Bass type pickup. Never get any complaints. AND ... I use that pig of an amp to drive a pair of "15 inch stage monitors through the main amp in jack sometimes. Cheap, versatile, and effective.

[Justin Thomas]

We think a lot alike, in the gear department... and I bet nobody sounds like you, either. It's a good thing.

Justin

[J M Fahey]

Quilter has 200 watt guitar amps that are 200 watts and weigh 4 lbs. WTF do you need 200 watts for in a club?

Quilter pushes 200W Class D through this 94 dB 8" speaker:
LF Pressed Chassis / Ferrite - TF0818 - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers

which is actually a very good PA type speaker but:
a) itīs real flat, it lacks the typical 8/12dB peak at around 2500 Hz which all guitar speakers have,


while a typical guitar speaker will have 98 to 100dB efficiency and the peak can reach around 108 dB

Since 3dB is 2:1 power and 6dB is 4:1, we can easily see that those 200W (which I real, I do not doubt that) driving a small not-so-efficient speaker may be comparable to, say, 50W driving a single or dual 12"

And now this looks more reasonable on a stage

Iīve seen worse: the 6" speaker loaded ZT Lunchbox amp was advertised as "200W" which not only was a straight lie (if you read the very fine print it stated some 60W RMS) but also created a bad aftertaste when people actually used it live.

What was in fact an incredible technical achievement turned up into a shoot in the foot.

To each his own; I prefer to deliver more than promised and slowly build a longtime faithful base of users... so far (47 years) it has worked fine.

[TimmyP1955]

So far, every box I've heard that had a small horn, I liked it with the horn off - unless there was a low pass (high cut) on the woofer(s). All those little horns do is reproduce clicks and clacks that add nothing useful to the tone. Disconnect the piezo, remove any filter on the woofer, and play.

[Richard]

Bass is definitely about cone area x displacement. I know that there are other factors but when I stepped up to a 15" combo I was quite pleased.

[J M Fahey]

Bass is definitely about cone area x displacement. I know that there are other factors but when I stepped up to a 15" combo I was quite pleased.

Then what had you been using earlier?











Just kidding ..... although still curious about what amp would be such a poor performer that the ubiquitous single 15" combo could be considered "an improvement".

[Richard]

A 12" combo. The current amp, an Ampeg BA-115, is adequate. It sounds good but is close to the top of its power sometimes. Maybe I should look into a more efficient speaker. I don't even know what's in it.

[J M Fahey]

A single 12" and 60/80W is the absolute minimum you can use if you donīt play alone.
Some customers ask for smaller amps claiming "we rehearse in a very small room" ... but the problem is the drummer, even if playing carefully and with a small kit he produces a certain sound pressure level around him, even in a closet, which you must match or at least approach.
If you dare, I suggest you build a powered cabinet, so you add an extra speaker, extra cabinet volume and extra power when you add it when needed, and keep the original combo as is for smaller gigs or rehearsal.
Not too complex, you get any used cabinet, even a dead one or a dead combo, or buy some cut to size wood (even particle board) and cook a simple one, then fit 2 x 10" or a single 12" or 15" , cut the back for a ready made plate amp and you are done.
No need for hardware or tolexing, just paint it flat black, onstage it will look like a tolexed cabinet anyway from a few feet away.