Oscilloscope, necessary tool or nearly worthless? Battling other shops

[nsubulysses]

There's a few shops in Chicago that seem to almost boast how they don't use an osilloscope to test and troubleshoot music gear. Insanely, it seems the least sophisticated shops are the ones with the highest prices, usually in the $90-100 per hour range. The kind of places where you get in a conversation with the tech and he blows your mind by telling you he hasn't used a scope in years and years. You ask, well then how do you know the amp is putting out full power, and he tells you by "just listening to the amp."

No wonder their labor rate is so high. They have internalized skills that normal people usually need test equipment for
I'd rather not listen to a bunch of 50-300W amps full volume in my 8' by 12' room just to make sure they work as they should. I'll take the scope any day

It makes me want to ban crappy shops from being my customers. Let them do their own haphazard repairs with long turn around time for a boat load of money.

Anyone else ever been in this position? Maybe I should respect them as just another customer, but I grew up despising shops and techs, which is why I am one now. I can't trust those people, well at least the ones I met personally. This all started because I paid a shop $160 8 years ago to fix my Acoustic 370 that was not loud. The invoice said broken connection on output transformer (which it doesn't have) and it was still not loud. After I got it back from them the 4th time it was loud. Great. I had to borrow peoples cars or take a taxi to go to the shop 8 times. Maybe they should have put it on a scope to see if it puts out as much power as all the other 370s.

As an aside, obviously I think everyone on here seems great In fact I would say the people on here exemplify the "bar" that I would hope all serious techs would be at.

The other thought I had is that any shop has to pay me their labor rate to work on their amps. As a punishment for pawning off the work that they should be doing but cannot or don't want to (solid state repairs that scare the techs, or turn around time is so long they're already screwed, "can you check this out and let me know ASAP?!?!?")

Anybody ever want to punish other shops that want you to do their work for them ?? hmmm I'm waking up firey like trump sorrry

[bob p]

There's a few shops in Chicago that seem to almost boast how they don't use an osilloscope to test and troubleshoot music gear. Insanely, it seems the least sophisticated shops are the ones with the highest prices, usually in the $90-100 per hour range.

I couldn't imagine not having an oscilloscope. Sure, there are lots of DIY builders who get along building simple circuits with nothing more than a DVM but I can't imagine any reputable shop not having a fully equipped test bench. That definitely gives me the impression that they're a fly-by-night outfit. And you know that's the case if they have to send amps to you that they're not capable of repairing.

A word about pricing -- I don't think any shop is going to be interested in paying you their shop rate. That's an unrealistic expectation. If they work out an arrangement with you to provide services for them then they're going to expect wholesale pricing, or at least a discounted rate so they can make a profit on your repairs by marking them up to their customers.

I think that the most important thing to remember is that the hourly rate doesn't really have meaning when you control the clock.

I don't see anything wrong with a $100/hour shop rate in a metro environment. I know that there are a lot of people who charge half of that, but I think they're undervaluing their own services.

[glebert]

solid state repairs that scare the techs

I find this funny because I am kind of a hack when it comes to repairs, but I do almost exclusively solid state (but my scope is tube ). I don't use my scope all that often, but it is absolutely necessary when tracing a signal through a complicated circuit board.

Seems like you are free to take whatever customers you want, and I personally don't think I would let other shops make money off my work.

[nsubulysses]

I asked the same question I posted above to a former Chicago tech I really like a lot. Unfortunately he now lives in Arizona.

he said it's probably because "the people who seem to be the best ones are genuinely curious about how stuff works and knowing it works right, rather than some cool rock band guys."

[52 Bill]

Chicago is very expensive city to run a business in, as is New York, LA, etc. The shop rate can be more of a reflection of the overhead and not the quality of the service.

Normally, if I have to repair an amp that needs a basic tuneup like cleaning pots and jacks or even new tubes, I don't normally check it on the scope to see how much power output it has. To me the scope is more of a diagnostic tool. I work in a small shop that doesn't have room to have a test lab set up where I can just hook up an amp to a scope and run power and distortion tests. If I need a scope, I have to pull it out and set it up to use it. If it was left out, it would be covered in steelwool and wood bits. This is all time that I can't charge a customer for.

Back in the '80s we used to have one day service specials, where we would set up a bench to do power output testing. People could bring in their amps and for $25 we would test all of the basic functions and then print out a sheet of detailed information showing how well their amp was meeting published specs. It was a sales tool to get people to have things repaired and to build store traffic. We stopped doing them because there were basically two types of customers, one that didn't care about technical specs as long as the amp was working and two those that cared far too much about technical specs and could make a techs life miserable.

If you do work for other shops that have inside service techs, then you should expect to only get the dogs that the house can't fix. If they were easy, they would do them in house.

Just my 2 cents.

[nsubulysses]

If you do work for other shops that have inside service techs, then you should expect to only get the dogs that the house can't fix. If they were easy, they would do them in house.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree. Some of the places are skimmers as Enzo calls them. They only do tube amp repairs (mostly vintage, those are the easiest) for a premium rate. They are the easiest repairs and selling tubes and doing a few recaps is easy, quick and profitable. Tracing the circuit on a solid state Sunn 1200S (fender version) is not.

I have been called by places that "do not service solid state amps" to do repairs. I wondered why they even had solid state bass amps on hand. When I got them, they had the name of a pretty well known band spraypainted on the roadcases. Oh cool, they don't do solid state but if a rockstar comes in they'll try to accomodate them by getting me to do the work to make their shop look good so they can post on instagram, "oh hey look who came in the shop today!" I have not been called back by this place but I would turn them down next time because of this. Or charge them their labor rate, or they can fix it themself, which they can't

[bob p]

... I personally don't think I would let other shops make money off my work.

I think that being offended by the idea of someone else making money off of your work is an unrealistic position.

Using you as a profit center is standard operating procedure for any music store that farms out their repair services to independent techs. They pay you to fix the amp for them, and they charge the customer more than what you charged them. It's their basic business model. Think about it -- If they can't make money by sending work to you then they have no reason to go through the trouble of taking in repairs and no reason to employ you.

General contractors make money by hiring subcontractors. That's the way the world works.

[glebert]

I think that being offended by the idea of someone else making money off of your work is a unrealistic position.

Using you as a profit center is standard operating procedure for any music store that farms out their repair services to independent techs. They pay you to fix the amp for them, and they charge the customer more than what you charged them. It's their basic business model. Think about it -- If they can't make money by sending work to you then they have no reason to go through the trouble of taking in repairs and no reason to employ you.

General contractors make money by hiring subcontractors. That's the way the world works.

Should have been more clear, I was referring to shops that oversell their capabilities then send out the tough jobs to someone else. If this is a music store that sends out all (or even most) of their repairs then it makes sense for them to get a cut for their part of the transaction although I think that amount should be modest.

[Mick Bailey]

A phrase springs to mind that a car dealer acquaintance uses; "Always leave a drink in it for the next guy".

I do plenty for local (and not so local) music shops. I try to be fair on pricing and give them the best break I can, whilst maintaining enough in the job for it to be worthwhile. In turn, they give me plenty of direct referrals and hand my cards out to potential customers. It's pretty tough running a shop and increasingly it's just somewhere you go to try something out before buying it off the web from somewhere else. I don't know what their markup is - I never ask and I'm not concerned so long as I get what I need out of the work.

I'm reminded of a workplace survey that was carried out. To summarise, employees would rather take a small pay cut that was the same for everyone, rather than their wage staying the same but a colleague getting a rise.

[bob p]

... It's pretty tough running a shop and increasingly it's just somewhere you go to try something out before buying it off the web from somewhere else. I don't know what their markup is - I never ask and I'm not concerned so long as I get what I need out of the work.

It's tough for a brick and mortar music store in today's business environment. Being able to provide repairs is a value added service that they can offer to help differentiate their local store from the mail order houses that can't provide that type of service.

It's interesting that you don't want to know what their markup is -- IMO that's a good attitude to have. There's nothing wrong with everyone in the chain making a good profit. If that weren't the case then the chain would have to collapse. I have had many stores recruit me to do work for them. In that type of environment you have to understand that a good deal is a deal that's profitable to everyone, and that it's not your place to determine how much is good for someone else, or how much is too much for someone else. Trying to micro-manage to the point that you want to control everyone else's share of the business chain can only lead to problems.

I'm reminded of a workplace survey that was carried out. To summarise, employees would rather take a small pay cut that was the same for everyone, rather than their wage staying the same but a colleague getting a rise.

[alexradium]

you can trace audio circuit with a probe and miniamp,but you don't know the quality of the signal,if there is inaudible high freq oscillations that can lead to further problems.
also,in tube amps you hear a nice round clean sound,and in reality you have lots of clipping,so its impossible to judge for example if the gain of a triode stage is correct or not.
Anyway,it happened before in my country,that a couple guys exploited some forums to get help in repairing "their amps",in reality they "worked" unofficially for some shops,but in the end there are no shortcuts,if you want to succeed in this field you need some theory,practice,tools and logic.

[nsubulysses]

I almost did not make this thread because its basically just kind of complainey but I'm actually really glad I did because it has definitely broadened my views on the topic in a good way.

I do work for shops occasionally because I need money and they are offering, which is basically what it breaks down to. How much I want to get into this is my own choice (good place to be in), and I guess I'm just lucky that people and sometimes even other businesses ask me to do work for them.

Honestly, my customers just bring me much better gear than the shops. so maybe I'm just mad they gave me a Line 6 1x12 combo and a 600W (or something) galien krueger head that fits in a laptop bag the other day

[Mick Bailey]

I handle a lot of gear that no-one else will touch with a stick. To a degree I can pick and choose what I repair, but a challenge is sometimes a good thing. If you can handle class D amps, SMPS, SMD etc, then you're in the modern world and not reliant on a retrospective look at amp technology. The opportunities to work on relatively simple, vintage gear are reducing in favour of what people are buying right now. I'd much rather carry out an early 60s AC30 restoration than fix (say) a Markbass amp, but that's what people are buying.

[Enzo]

The dentist charges $150, the orthodontist charges $1500. My doctor costs $50, my cardiologist charges $150. Tuffy charges $100 for a Porsche muffler. A real Porsche muffler costs far more.

I charge my customer fair rates, and when some kid charges half what I do, I don't scream, in fact I likely gave him the schematic and sold him parts. But I am an expert, a specialist, and I don't feel bad charging specialist rates. I am all for leaving a margin in subcontract work, but if the shop is basically competing with me, and farming out the stuff they cannot fathom, why do they merit a discount? If I basically AM their shop, sure, I quote wholesale rates. But it is entirely different when they are living on their own, and need me to cover their asses when it gets tough.

When my dentist needs a procedure done that is beyond their normal purview, they refer me to a specialist. When my doctor needs tests or procedures done beyond their facility, they refer me to a specialist. I do not expect that that specialist will give me a bill at the original doctor's rates.

You cannot regret charging for what you are worth.

[Tom Phillips]

...it happened before in my country,that a couple guys exploited some forums to get help in repairing "their amps",in reality they "worked" unofficially for some shops...

I see that happening all the time including on MEF. A posting will start with "I have an Acme Stratoblaster 2000XL on the bench and ---Insert question here that makes it obvious the writer doesn't understand elementary electronics---." I don't mind helping or even doing extensive mentoring if the person is honest about their situation and they exhibit a true desire to learn something rather than just being told how to fix the amp. However, the issue I have is when the same person keeps repeating the process, never showing any interest in learning the "why" behind the suggested troubleshooting/repair advice. If someone is selling themselves as a professional repair service then I expect them to invest the time to learn troubleshooting skills and the money to outfit a proper test bench.

Helping a do-it-yourselfer do occasional repair on his gear is a different situation. No problem there if the person can safely follow directions.

Cheers,
Tom