General Question about European power and polarity

[Gtr0]

Thank you guys very much! There is so much conflicting information out there. I needed to find out from MEF the final word, and I believe you have given it to me :-) Going to get a "qualified" electrician in here to reverse it.

Thanks and Happy Holidays!

Of course there's a difference between line (hot phase) and neutral in the installation/house wiring.
But if the equipment has a reversible plug the orientation must not matter to the equipment.
Any electrician should have a phase detector (screwdriver with built-in neon).

Hi Eric,
I say that your "electrician" is wrong. (I put electrician in quotes because I suspect that person is, in reality, a handyman who works as a jack of all trades.
The link below shows a page titled " Differences in USA and European AC Panels" that clearly explains that there is a difference between the hot and neutral lines used in a European, 230V line power system. Of particular note is that the branch circuit breakers are single-pole installed only in the hot line.

As the warning light on your new power conditioner has alerted you, there is a wiring mistake in your house wiring. Based on my experience, I'm not all that surprised. I have found many such mistakes in equipment and building wiring. Unfortunately, many of the mistakes go unnoticed because, although the wiring does not conform to safety standards, it appears to work properly to most people.

https://www.bluesea.com/support/arti...pean_AC_Panels I have also attached a screen shop of the relevant information in case the link goes dead in the future.


HTH,
Tom

[Tom Phillips]

Thank you guys very much! There is so much conflicting information out there. I needed to find out from MEF the final word, and I believe you have given it to me :-) Going to get a "qualified" electrician in here to reverse it...

I suggest that rather than telling the new electrician to "revers it", show and tell the qualified electrician the situation and get an evaluation and repair of your overall system. This is to be sure that the final result is a fully proper installation.

[Gtr0]

I suggest that rather than telling the new electrician to "revers it", show and tell the qualified electrician the situation and get an evaluation and repair of your overall system. This is to be sure that the final result is a fully proper installation.

Exactly my plan, thank you Tom.

On another note... I have a German extension multi-socket that would allow me to flip the orientation of the socket feeding the power conditioner and no matter which way I have the plug oriented results in the same thing... a fault light still on.

This is my German extension... the cable that goes into the wall has the proper grounding for Belgium, and the provided sockets have the grounding tabs on the side, so I can re-orient the socket... no difference.

[pdf64]

Have you got a multimeter?

I’m wondering if your supply is split phase, 115-0-115, ie both wires are live.

[Tom Phillips]

...On another note... I have a German extension multi-socket that would allow me to flip the orientation of the socket feeding the power conditioner and no matter which way I have the plug oriented results in the same thing... a fault light still on...

That's a new interesting, and frustrating, bit of information.
Has the subject fault light always been on since you received the new power conditioner? If so you could connect the power conditioner to other locations in the house to determine if the fault light is always on. If so, you could try it at a completely different location such as a friend's house. Since it's a new piece of equipment it's possible that the power conditioner fault detection is not operating correctly. Good troubleshooting technique requires that all possibilities are considered as you investigate.

[Tom Phillips]

An outlet tester would be useful to have. One example is shown at https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002702809540.html .
I expect that your local sources would see ones that are appropriate for your electrical system.

[Pixel]

On another note... I have a German extension multi-socket that would allow me to flip the orientation of the socket feeding the power conditioner and no matter which way I have the plug oriented results in the same thing... a fault light still on.

This is my German extension... the cable that goes into the wall has the proper grounding for Belgium, and the provided sockets have the grounding tabs on the side, so I can re-orient the socket... no difference.

The power conditioner might detect more types of faults than the error message describes. Perhaps you have no or a poor ground.

My UK friend has a place in France and he said there is no requirement to wire neutral and hot a particular way but that most electricians will wire the hot on the right and the neutral on the left. The wiring in his place scared him so much he had the whole thing redone.

[Gtr0]

Hi Everyone. And Thanks for your time!!!

So, both leads of my DMM to live and Neutral, I get 238 VAC. One lead to one side and the other to the earth of the socket, 138 VAC, and the same changing the lead to the other side...

Oh, and by the way, to clarify, the guy who wired up my attic is an electrician by trade for a local museum, though I did employ him in a "handyman" setting - off the books. But other than that I could not attest to his "quality of standards" or anything else for that matter.

That's a new interesting, and frustrating, bit of information.
Has the subject fault light always been on since you received the new power conditioner? If so you could connect the power conditioner to other locations in the house to determine if the fault light is always on. If so, you could try it at a completely different location such as a friend's house. Since it's a new piece of equipment it's possible that the power conditioner fault detection is not operating correctly. Good troubleshooting technique requires that all possibilities are considered as you investigate.

No doubt! I will certainly try it in another home I suppose. The red led does come on so far in every socket tested so far in my home.

Oh yea, some more images of the unit plugged in and off, then powered up... "Ground Ok" -

But am I correct to think that the ground works if I am able to get the reading of the AC on one side of the power line? I mean in both instances I was connected to the socket ground pin.

[Greg Robinson]

You've got split phase, nothing wrong with your wiring. You can safely ignore the warning light on your power conditioner as it does not apply to your type of power system (but it should be noted that it is functioning as intended, nothing wrong with the conditioner either).

Many parts of the world, and certainly the Anglosphere where most members of this forum are from, use polarised AC wiring essentially as a cost-cutting measure - if the phase wire/pin is consistent, then a single pole switch can be used to be render appliances and wiring "safe" in most instances. But this can and does lead to problems (such as the well-known "death-cap" and ground polarity switches).
The rest of the world, including most of continental Europe, is "polarity agnostic". AC appliances certainly don't care about polarity, and for anything to be truly safe, a double-pole switch should be used.
Split-phase as it appears you have is safer again, as each phase is only 115V away from ground, vs the 230V the phase wire caries in most of Europe.

Your power conditioner was designed with the former, polarity-centric system in mind, so it's working as intended, only the "fault" it's indicating does not apply to the system in use in your country.

Hope that reassures you.

[Helmholtz]

I wasn't aware of the split-phase system as its not used in Germany.

Now, according to the table in this article:https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A...nd_-frequenzen Belgium widely uses an even different distribution system, where households are supplied with 2 phases of a 3-phase system.
The nominal voltage between the 2 phases is 230V, while the voltage from each phase to earth is 133V (so not 115V as one would expect with a split-phase system).

[Tom Phillips]

...according to the table in this article:https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A...nd_-frequenzen Belgium widely uses an even different distribution system, where households are supplied with 2 phases of a 3-phase system.
The nominal voltage between the 2 phases is 230V, while the voltage from each phase to earth is 133V (so not 115V as one would expect with a split-phase system).

Eric,
Given that updated information, I would expect that your distribution panel will be fitted with double pole circuit breakers for each of your branch circuits. (This is different than stated in the table I attached to post #14) Can you confirm the use of double pole breakers for your branch circuits? If so, the whole situation now makes sense.

[Gtr0]

The multi-quote system seems to not work, so I am doing these manually...

You've got split phase, nothing wrong with your wiring. You can safely ignore the warning light on your power conditioner as it does not apply to your type of power system (but it should be noted that it is functioning as intended, nothing wrong with the conditioner either).

Well, it is certainly what I was hoping for !!!

Now, according to the table in this article:https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A...nd_-frequenzen Belgium widely uses an even different distribution system, where households are supplied with 2 phases of a 3-phase system.
The nominal voltage between the 2 phases is 230V, while the voltage from each phase to earth is 133V (so not 115V as one would expect with a split-phase system).

Okay, so it makes more sense to me why I was reading 138V per phase and 238V together. The power is really creeping up here... just two years ago it was usually around 232V, now it's hitting 240V at some times during the day (when I assume "normal" people are at work).

Given that updated information, I would expect that your distribution panel will be fitted with double pole circuit breakers for each of your branch circuits. (This is different than stated in the table I attached to post #14) Can you confirm the use of double pole breakers for your branch circuits? If so, the whole situation now makes sense.

Will definitely do so when it gets to a decent hour. It's still very early, so I will come back with that info later.

I have wired up, from scratch, dozens of amplifiers, and one of my late 60's Laney amps had 660 Volts across the secondaries feeding the EL34 plates. So I know enough to be safe and I have an extreme fear of electricity which I suppose is good, I have been "buzzed" once or twice, but in 20 years of fiddling around with and building amps I haven't had a serious shock yet... so I try to be safe.

Having said that, something eludes me about understanding fully how electricity works and how current "flows" - but like everything else, 10 people will tell you ten different things and 9 or more of them are wrong. I have heard many "ideas" of how it works... from water flow, to water pipe sizes, to potential differences... I know that most, if not all, is wrong.

Compounded with the fact that I am from Pennsylvania and moved to a tiny village on the French side of Belgium where the electricity is completely different... well, it's a lot for my brain.

I am thankful you are here and willing to take the time to answer my questions.

Happy holidays everyone!!!

- Eric

[Gtr0]

Eric,
Given that updated information, I would expect that your distribution panel will be fitted with double pole circuit breakers for each of your branch circuits. (This is different than stated in the table I attached to post #14) Can you confirm the use of double pole breakers for your branch circuits? If so, the whole situation now makes sense.

Yes, they are double pole breakers.

[Tom Phillips]

Yes, they are double pole breakers.

Nice. Everything is making more sense now with the exception of the fault light showing on your power conditioner.
Based on this latest information, I would agree with your electrician's statement the that "it makes no difference as to which side carries the live or the neutral."
However, in the US, when a 240V branch circuit is installed, the wires are identified as two Hots and a ground. The term neutral does not apply to any of those 240V branch circuit wires.

As Helmholtz pointed out in post #25, a significant feature of your system is apparently that it uses two phases of a three phase system. I have never needed to work on a three phase system so I don't know if that's a factor.

It would still be interesting to know if the power conditioner neutral fault light turns on when the power conditioner is connected in other buildings.

[g1]

Sorry if I missed it, but I think it would be worthwhile to ask the manufacturer about the fault light in this scenario, and the brightness of it.