Nichicon audio grade vs. preminum grade capacitors?

[The Dude]

I was talking with a well known amp designer/engineer for a well known company at NAMM one year. I'm leaving the names of both out to protect the guilty. I asked him why he quit his previous employer (another well known company). He explained that they kept sourcing cheaper parts after his designs were finished and the cheaper parts made the amp sound different- not necessarily better or worse, but different. IMO, this makes perfect sense. While the amps were schematically identical, by the time his designs hit production (with all the cheaper parts source changes), they sounded nothing like what he intended. He did not want his name associated with the final product, so left the company.

[tedmich]

I was talking with a well known amp designer/engineer for a well known company at NAMM one year. I'm leaving the names of both out to protect the guilty. I asked him why he quit his previous employer (another well known company). He explained that they kept sourcing cheaper parts after his designs were finished and the cheaper parts made the amp sound different- not necessarily better or worse, but different. IMO, this makes perfect sense. While the amps were schematically identical, by the time his designs hit production (with all the cheaper parts source changes), they sounded nothing like what he intended. He did not want his name associated with the final product, so left the company.

sounds like...???

[Tom Phillips]

If all components in a tube guitar amp would be free from non-ideal effects, I guess no player would like the sound.

I like to use the explanation that a guitar amp is an instrument that creates a certain sound. This is much different than a sound system amp that is designed to amplify a recorded sound without changing it in any way.

[dai h.]

I dig fuzzes, distorting guitar amps, effects, etc. etc. but at the same time didn't Joe Pass (Jazz guitarist guy) plug into the PA? "Guitar sound" can be a pretty big universe (acoustic, electric, all sorts of different styles). I had a prof. (some Music History course?--I forget) trying to tell me once that David Torn (uses a lot of effects) was a keyboard player which drove me slightly nuts trying to argue ("it's a guitar!!!!) with him, lol (he was cool though).

[sparkies]

What is the difference between Nichicon audio grade and preminum grade electrolytic capacitors? Is it just marketing and price?

I find that none are superior over another, just different distortion and insertion loss profile. Dielectric types have their own characteristics generically, so grade is just a variation label to the generic dielectric characteristics with a particular construction.
The construction of the capacitor will dictate how well the dielectric performs. That is why there are good and bad box film caps for example.

[Chuck H]

I don't think there's any analogy between the dielectric for electrolytic caps and box film caps. There should be no real difference in the dielectric used in any aluminum electrolytic cap. The dielectric will always be aluminum oxide. There aren't different dielectric types for aluminum electrolytic caps as there are different dielectric films for film caps. So it should only be the construction and electrolyte that can make a difference for aluminum electrolytic caps.

As to tonality in the signal path it's already been noted that the difference between touted "audio grade" caps and more general purpose products should be negligible. More important to tube amp designers would be how the big, burly aluminum electrolytics perform in power supplies. Working life, ripple rejection, etc. And we covered some of that too with some good models suggested by Pixel.

[35L6]

When I hear " audio " I think hifi . They are probably looking at distortion . In guitar amps 5% THD is normal but in hifi they are looking for .01% .

[sparkies]

I don't think there's any analogy between the dielectric for electrolytic caps and box film caps. There should be no real difference in the dielectric used in any aluminum electrolytic cap. The dielectric will always be aluminum oxide. There aren't different dielectric types for aluminum electrolytic caps as there are different dielectric films for film caps. So it should only be the construction and electrolyte that can make a difference for aluminum electrolytic caps.

As to tonality in the signal path it's already been noted that the difference between touted "audio grade" caps and more general purpose products should be negligible. More important to tube amp designers would be how the big, burly aluminum electrolytics perform in power supplies. Working life, ripple rejection, etc. And we covered some of that too with some good models suggested by Pixel.

Different dielectrics have different frequency distortion properties. Electrolytic capacitors have a lot of different electrolytic formulations. Also other things like stacking plates in series parallel internally to divide the voltage drop. There is a lot of construction considerations with capacitors. But that is way past the scope of this web site and this audience apparently.

[sparkies]

When I hear " audio " I think hifi . They are probably looking at distortion . In guitar amps 5% THD is normal but in hifi they are looking for .01% .

That is one of the things that distortion meters can not tell if the distortion is in-harmonic or not. Only there is a difference to the original signal.
Because tubes harmonically generate signal along with the signal amplified. New designed tubes they try to control it with different materials, but I find that they are better off building them like they should and throw away the distortion meter. Since older construction designs are better due to NOS sales being greater at times than their new tube sales.

Electrolytic capacitors are third to the last on the list of quality when you look for a coupling capacitor. But the only people that would be able to tell is in HIFi and bass. Guitar amps don't use the frequencies that the electrolytic distort. The real aspect of an audio electrolytic to consider is its ESR because a higher ESR equates to nonlinear insertion loss and phase shift in the frequency band.

[Helmholtz]

Different dielectrics have different frequency distortion properties. Electrolytic capacitors have a lot of different electrolytic formulations.

The electrolyte is a liquid ion conductor.
A dielectric is an insulator. All aluminum ecaps use an aluminum oxide layer as dielectric.
Seems you don't understand ecaps.

[Chuck H]

But that is way past the scope of this web site and this audience apparently.

Oh stop. I'm blushing. You charmer you.

[sparkies]

The electrolyte is a liquid ion conductor.
A dielectric is an insulator. All aluminum ecaps use an aluminum oxide layer as dielectric.
Seems you don't understand ecaps.

You need to look into capacitors. I spent 3 months in school how all of them are constructed and every design aspect with them.

To educate you, an electrolyte can be a solid, liquid, or gas.

This is not to be confused with the different aluminum electrolytic formulas that are broken down to wet and dry types.

[Helmholtz]

You need to look into capacitors.
.

I surely did.
The typical Al ecap is of the wet type, where the electrolyte is a liquid.
The electrolyte, being a conductor, is used as the cathode of the ecap.
The electrolyte is NOT the dielectric.

[Chuck H]

I don't know that I've ever seen a stacked plate aluminum electrolytic capacitor. Maybe they exist as huge units for industrial applications or something but I've never seen anything like that for audio circuits.

[nosaj]

\

To educate you, an electrolyte can be a solid, liquid, or gas.

This is not to be confused with the different aluminum electrolytic formulas that are broken down to wet and dry types.

mr. Mikesa could an orange be a capacitor?
I personally prefer children as my capacitors because by the time they reach the teen years they sound thin and hollow.

nosaj