Fender Excelsior amp 13 Watts 1X15" with Tremolo

[Steve A.]

This is a brand new amp made in China- I was just wondering what was under the hood. (There are no tone controls, just a Bright/Dark switch- and 3 inputs for guitar, microphone and accordion!)

Steve Ahola

P.S. Here is a link to a detailed look at the amp on Bill Macrone's site (billm of Blues Junior fame- I don't know if he is still an editor at PC Magazine):

http://billmaudio.com/wp/?page_id=1203

[bob p]

Got Schematic?

[bob p]

According to a Fender video on youtube, that amp supposedly came out last year as a limited edition, but due to the demand for it Fender decided to keep the model running. They were supposed to be hard to get in the past (I had never actually seen one), but they seem to be readily available now. I saw one on the floor of my local GC about a week ago. GC also has plenty of used ones for $200 on their site, so I'm not sure that I buy into the "hard to get" propaganda.

Construction looked cheap. Nice retro tolex covering, but with a bare steel chassis, flimsy knobs, chinese tubes and a cheesy speaker. I didn't particularly care for the speaker, which I thought rendered the amp very harsh. If anyone purchased the amp I think that a speaker exchange would be in order. But I did like the general build topology, which uses two sub-chassis to put the preamp up top and the heavy stuff on the bottom. I had built a tweed-style combo that way once (with the flexible conduit) and I really liked the lower center of gravity that it provided. I've never seen a major manufacturer offer an amp that way.

The speaker in the regular excelsior is a real dog. Not very efficient and very shrill. I'd definitely recommend replacing it with something like an Eminence 1518, which could only be an improvement. Now I see that Fender is offering a "Pro" version of the amp, which includes an Eminence 15 and different colored tolex. The price delta is about the same as the cost of buying the Eminence 15.

[bob p]

fender propaganda:

[Steve A.]

Got Schematic?

Thanks! I see that the Bright/Dark switch is a variation on the Tweed Deluxe tone circuit. I really don't see the point of using a switch instead of a pot there. But then again it might work great when you plug in your accordion...

Steve

P.S. The first preamp stage looks really dirty- 220k plate and 3k3 cathode resistors. I think I would make it more like a Fender. Whoops! I guess it IS a Fender...

This is displayed when you open PDF file:

"Please note that in the United States and Canada this product is warranted for 1 Year only, and IS NOT serviced in the field."

[bob p]

I think like you, Steve. the schematic looks like the amp sounds -- dirty. I'm thinking that the amp might end up being a good modding platform, though, if you don't mind dealing with the cheesy chinese PCBs. If I had one of these things I'd probably just gut it in favor of a classic fender tweed circuit.

considering how easy it would be to build, I'd probably just build a square box, wrap it in tolex, and use some better components for a DIY build. I'm not a big fan of ridiculously expensive boutique iron but then I'm not a big fan of cheap chinese iron, either.

[Steve A.]

I'm thinking that the amp might end up being a good modding platform, though, if you don't mind dealing with the cheesy chinese PCBs.

Selling for $300 and coming with a 15" speaker that really needs to be replaced... too rich for my blood! When they drop in price to $150/new or $100/used I might get one then. I guess the 2013 models come with an Eminence Legend 15 speaker.

After watching the video my take on the "limited edition" hype was that Fender had been planning to phase it out after 2012 and introduce something else for 2013 so in that sense it was a limited edition. Although I am sure that anyone who wanted one could find one, on-line if not locally.

Steve

P.S. By the time I get done modding those cheesy Chinese PCB's they are usually in part point-to-point. After trashing traces I end up bending component leads or adding jumpers to make up the missing connections...

[bob p]

I agree -- $300 is too much for what they are. I've seen used ones going for $200, which isn't bad, but like you say $100 would be a whole lot better.

Even at $100 it's hard to justify the buy, considering that the speaker needs to be replaced, and once you've finished modding it, you're going to end up with a circuit that's re-wired to the point that you might as well just gut it. Then all that's left that's original is cheapo chinese iron and the box.

I do like the look though.

[bob p]

"Please note that in the United States and Canada this product is warranted for 1 Year only, and IS NOT serviced in the field."

That suggests to me that they never planned to continue to sell this model for very long. It sounds as if they just decided to do a quick run of this item and then abandon it once they sold through the number of units that were made during the contract run.

[Enzo]

Not serviced in the field refers to warranty repair. Their low end stuff is generally on that list. It has nothing to do with repairability or obsolescence, it has everything to do with its cost. The cost to Fender to make these is tiny. They won't pay me $50 (and half again that much for the handling of the claim and cutting the check) to repair one when they can replace it for less than that. The FM212R is on that list too, and sells for even more than the $300. And they have been making those for 10 years now. Most manufacturers now have a no repair list.

[Steve A.]

Even at $100 it's hard to justify the buy, considering that the speaker needs to be replaced, and once you've finished modding it, you're going to end up with a circuit that's re-wired to the point that you might as well just gut it.

With an amp like that I'd want to bring out it's Inner Self. I figure that the engineers had something in mind when they designed it, only in the process of converting it to a retail product something was lost in the translation. Like they probably had to compromise on the speaker which would have a big effect on the sound. And marketing probably had their own ideas.

And with a cool tremolo like that how could you discard the design?

Steve

P.S. I just noticed that the coupling caps going to the output tube are listed as .01uF. I guess maybe they went that low to brighten up the 15" speaker a bit.

[bob p]

Not serviced in the field refers to warranty repair. Their low end stuff is generally on that list. It has nothing to do with repairability or obsolescence, it has everything to do with its cost.

Thanks for clarifying that Enzo. I guess we're seeing the days when even a combo tube amp becomes a throwaway item.

Those things do look really cheaply made. Even the most expensive part (the iron) looks cheap. I'd be surprised if the amp costs fender more than $50 to build.

So what happens when one breaks during warranty? Fender just sends you a replacement if they still make the amp, and a check if they don't?

[bob p]

I figure that the engineers had something in mind when they designed it, only in the process of converting it to a retail product something was lost in the translation. Like they probably had to compromise on the speaker which would have a big effect on the sound. And marketing probably had their own ideas.

I think they were probably thinking, "What's the cheapest way we could make something reminiscent of a 5G-9 Tremolux? Something really cheap that novice players wouldn't realize is as cheap as it is."

I think that they took a couple of shortcuts too many and ended up making a really cheesy amp. Example: no depth control on the trem circuit. To some guy who's never had trem on an amp, he might not even notice. but it would probably drive someone like you or me crazy to not have that control.

With an amp like that I'd want to bring out it's Inner Self.

the problem with this amp is that it's inner self might not be worth bringing out. There's a lot of distance between the Excelsior and a 5G-9, which is a pretty nice little amp. I think this amp is really targeted at the low end of the buyer's spectrum. I think it's defininitely an amp for people who aren't very discriminating. The speaker is really bad. (My previous comment was an insult to dogs. My apologies to all dogs who might be reading this.) The tremolo is really lame (no depth) and the amp is pretty dirty sounding without any really good Fender cleans. I think it's tone is tuned for kids and beginners looking for dirt, and not for serious players. I'm thinking that spending time bringing out this amp's inner self might be about as worthwhile an effort as polishing a turd. Thinking about it a bit more, this amp might not be a very good starting point unless somebody abandoned a broken one and gave it to you as a project.

P.S. I just noticed that the coupling caps going to the output tube are listed as .01uF. I guess maybe they went that low to brighten up the 15" speaker a bit.

Notice that the resistors are 470k. That's pretty high. I'm thinking that the effective time constant for the circuit would be the same as the 5G-9 that used something like 0.02 uF and 220k, IIRC.

[bob p]

I apologize for hijacking your thread, Steve, but if anyone has the schematic for the Greta, I'd like to see it.

[Enzo]

Fender is not out to stiff anyone, they want their customers happy. They want them happy with their entry level stuff so they will think Fender when they buy something higher up the food chain. Under warranty, if the amp fails, they will send a replacement amp. We return the larger ones like the FM212R. Small amps like those that come with Strat Pack beginner sets or smaller practice amps are to be "destroyed" by the service center. They suggest we strip any useful parts off them, but they don't want them sold again. In reality, I think most of us just build up a pile of the little dead ones.

Speaking of tube combos, the little Champion 600 is on the list. I tossed a dead one aside, only thing wrong with it was a resistor anyway. Figured I'd never touch it again. That little carcass has bailed me out of a bunch of repairs. The transformers went to a couple amps, I needed a socket, and a few other small parts covered me with a lack of stock on something.

If Fender no longer makes a model or if they are out of stock, they will replace a unit with something equivalent. I recently exchanged a FM212DSP for a customer. They were out of them and were not expecting any for a long period, so they replaced it with a new Mustang III or IV or whatever the latest Mustang 2x12 amp is. I also see replacements where a Rumble was replaced by a Frontman or vice versa.


In my opinion, I don't think there is much point in trying to relate this amp to a Tremolux or most anything retro. These amps are not aimed at the serious player, these are entry level amps. The design is retro, it looks like something old, but a novice or kid looking at them has no remembrance of a 5G9 or anything. It LOOKs like an old radio or something. A bunch of old basic amps had tremolos with a speed control with an on/off switch on it. SO the lack of a depth control makes it LOOK like some old cheap amp.