Different brands of power tubes!?!

[Leo_Gnardo]

I think I need to go back to buying from Ruby or Groove Tubes. I just don't like paying a premium for Chinese tubes. But well selected and tested seems to matter more than birthplace!

Groove was bought out by Fender @ 3 years ago. I suspect their very best are installed in new Fender amps, so as to minimize warranty replacements, which eat into the profits. Good choice for once from management. OTOH tubes that aren't used in Fenders are no longer in the catalog, also missing are all the other goodies GT used to make, mics, mic pres, guitar amps & preamps, "substitube" octal-to-9pin adapters, etc etc. as well as support for those items. The current GT techs will do their best to touch their earlobes with their shoulders if you ask. "Huh what, never heard of it."

I've been fairly satisfied with Ruby's ability to cull duds and identify premium tubes. Not perfect but IMO beats everyone else at an acceptable price point. (One item I find xtra nice are HG+ grade 12AX7A CZ - actually JJ - a bit expensive but these don't have the "geiger counter" noises typically found in JJ, also don't have that high frequency "ping" you hear in Shuguang's 12AX7's.) You need to be a "business" IOW they do not sell to individuals. So, as long as you have a biz name and maybe state sales tax # you're qualified to buy. Very small company with maybe half a dozen employees. They do have a good reputation for supplying some of the boo-tique builders as well as Mesa who are just down the road apiece. I've been a customer since the mid 80's. Try to buy in quantity. Couple hundred $ at a time. They're not too happy filling nickel-&-dime orders.

The TS EL34L's were brand new from Thetubestore. I had them sitting on a shelf about five months. So, no longer covered by any warranty. Anyone need a single EL34 for a project?

Q: so whattaya do with those tubes that don't hold up?
A: target practice

[Justin Thomas]

Going back to the original thread, I think tubes should be tested in:
1. A single-ended combo with a 12" or 15 speaker and nothing but a volume control, and
2. A BF Bassman or other similar very simple amp (by today&s standards.)

I always laugh when I see a company say they're cranking the amps to "really make the power tubes sing," then I see the "channel volume" or whatever they call it on 8 and the master on 3. I'm not knocking the Ruciveras - I'd play one, if I had it and was able to work on it myself. But let's eliminate all the extra gain and tone shaping controls and use the stupid-simplest amps we can to eliminate as many variables AS PRACTICALLY possible. Even in the other video that Big Teee posted awhile back with the stereo amp running all those different kinds of tubes, I couldn't tell a whole lot of difference except for maybe one or two pairs. I'd be able to find something useful in all of them, like the Clapton quote above. And the caps, I heard differences, but couldn't ID them blindfolded. I could use any of them for different reasons, and none of them were really "bad."

I guess personally I'd rather get the amp done and fire it up and play it than worry about what parts are in it. I use the caps I do for space & layout reasons, and the tubes based on reliability and past experiences with failures. Mallorys just fit better in a Fender, and EH tubes have shorted out on me just one time too many for me to use them. Otherwise, plug in, turn up, rock out!!!

Justin

[Leo_Gnardo]

[QUOTE=Justin Thomas;300065]Going back to the original thread, I think tubes should be tested in:
1. A single-ended combo with a 12" or 15 speaker and nothing but a volume control, and
2. A BF Bassman or other similar very simple amp (by today&s standards.)[?QUOTE}

At one time GT claimed they did test all their tubes in actual amps, after running them thru the "pinball machine". That was early days. Doubt the Fenderized GT does that now.

When customers ask do I have a tube tester, and even better if they can use my tube tester to run through their pile of dusty dreck so they can sell it online for a big buck, I tell 'em the truth. Your amp is the best tube tester there is. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir when I say the tube tester doesn't tell us much. Perhaps the better rebranders/suppliers have testers that put "real world" B+ voltage on the plates & screen grids, inject a signal & show it on a scope screen as well as audio monitor. Maybe a listen-to as well to reject those that hiss honk buzz hum etc. I suspect Ruby does have a thorough screening as it's rare I get a dud. OTOH there's only so much time any company can spend putting tubes on the test stand. Some offer 24 hour, or 48 or 100 hour "burned in" sets at a super premium price.* Typically I'll let an amp run for hours or even days with new tubes just to make sure they're not showing any signs of distress.

* Also cryogenically treated, whew! What else, sprinkled with fairy dust? Blessed by the "holy man?" anything to make a profit.

[Enzo]

Just my opinion...

Fender bought GT for the name - marketing. I really doubt they bought GT so they could pick over the tubes and just use the best ones. They don;t need to. I also suspect that the volume of tubes Fender goes through in a year exceeded the emtire "production" of GT before the acquisition.

Remember Groove Tubes had the 10-point scale for grading power tubes? GT under Fender has Blue, White, and Red. So we now grade them into three bins instead of 10.

As to warranty issues on tubes, regardless of brand of amp and brand of tube in said amps, and before or after Fender bought GT, warranty tube replacements in covered amplifiers is a TINY little fraction of warranty repairs. And since GT doesn't make the tubes, the SOvtek or JJ tubes Fender was buying before GT should be no more nor less reliable than the same tubes with Groove Tube printed on them.

[Joe L]

Here's a video of a shootout that demonstrates the point better than I can by yammering on:

EL34 comparison Mullard vs Siemens vs Sovtek vs Telefunken vs Svetlana vs Electroharmonix, etc - YouTube

I have Siemens, Sovtek (old EL34Bs like yours Chuck), Svetlana (before they were winged C), Electroharmonix and original Teslas from the 90s.

My opinion:

Siemens - meh... not what I think of when I think "Marshall" mids. Ok in a MV amp if you use preamp distortion only.

Sovtek EL34Bs - A bit harsh when overdriven and don't try to use them over 450v cranked because they will redplate. Otherwise, they do sound like an EL34.

EH - returned every pair I've tried because as soon as I cranked them, they instantly melted the screens. Not saying it wasn't my or the amps' fault but the Svets and Sovteks held up in the same sockets.

Old Teslas - With the right setup they sound great. You can hear these on the BadCo live album "What You Hear Is What You Get". The rig setup was guitar(s)->Sony wireless->Marshall 900 pre->TC 2290->stereo to effects return on two Marshall 900 amps->two full stack Marshall straight cabs. I sat on the side of the stage with Mick Ralphs tech Gary Gilmore. We discussed a bunch of stuff but I was amused that he had to contact the factory to find out how to mod the bias to go down to -38v for the Teslas. He did have a good ear tho, and knew how to setup a rig to eliminate ground loops. Both he and Mick were very, very nice people.

Svets/Winged C - Good tube. I like em. I like their 6L6s too, even matched with a Marshall type output transformer. I use them on my SLO with an obsolete OEI plexi OT. BTW, I hear the factory has closed. Get 'em while they last.

[philbo]

And an all time quote in my view, I think it was Eric Clapton, "OH just give me an amp, I'll get a tone out of it."

I have been very happy with the results using the Ruby EL34BSTR. Sound good, work good, none have blown up on me yet.

I agree. I don't hear much difference between tube types. But I'm more interested in making music than making sound. So I play, and get my tone out of whatever I use. I don't think it's what you have, it's more how you play it. (Readying my asbestos suit for the coming flames...)

[Chuck H]

No flames from this one. I agree. That doesn't mean I won't chase ideals in my head or on the bench! Someone's got to do it

But it's true enough that the best musicians are all about music! They can almost instantly detect the most useable qualities in whatever instruments they're using and play to it. I can do that a little bit. But I much prefer shaping my tone to my touch rather than shaping my touch to my tone. I'm also not a renowned guitarist.

[Leo_Gnardo]

I agree. I don't hear much difference between tube types. But I'm more interested in making music than making sound. So I play, and get my tone out of whatever I use. I don't think it's what you have, it's more how you play it. (Readying my asbestos suit for the coming flames...)

Put away that asbestos suit & button up your Nehru jacket. The talented guitarists still sound like ... themselves ... no matter what they use. And so can you! Reading up on a gathering of the greats awhile back, Phil Taylor (Floyd/Gilmour tech since way back when) said Mark Knopfler played thru Dave Gilmour's rig, and sounded like Knopfler. And so it goes. Just one small example.

Although, someone brought me one of those "Hendrix" modeling wah pedals to fix last year and once I got it working & plugged in to test, guess who started rattling out Hendrix-like licks - I didn't know I had it in me. Sometimes a guitar, amp, or other piece of gear can be inspiring in ways we can't predict. Power tubes, not so much.

[Chuck H]

Sometimes a guitar, amp, or other piece of gear can be inspiring in ways we can't predict.

That's my whole post #22 in a nutshell. The great ones can plug into anything, with anything and their sensibilities key in and say "Hey, listen to this musical thing that's happening!" Instead of "This amp is harsh. I need another." The good players are too busy making music to be petty about small details. As long as there's SOME musical qualities, they find it and get to their passion.

Of course, those same players DO buy the good stuff when it's time to gear up!!! There's a reason for that. And I love designing amps. There's a reason for that too.

[Joe L]

I know what you mean. As much as I love 'em, Billy Gibbons has had some of the worst live tones I've heard. "Live In New Jersey" comes to mind. Sounded like a buzz box direct into the PA.

..Joe L

[Chuck H]

Ok... Figuring that "you don't get anything if you don't ask" I wrote to thetubestore to let them know that one of their tubes failed right out of the box with proper bias in a known working amp. And I conceded that I did not plug them in within the warranty period. But I also said that lacking a favorable response, I wouldn't be using their services again. They responded by suggesting that the tubes may have been damaged in shipping or while in my care and then offered to sell me another tube... FOR MORE THAN THE PRICE ON THEIR WEBSITE!!! I'll take that for a slight. I've ordered from them twice. Of the ten preamp tubes, one was noisy, one was hummy and another was grossly microphinic. I had no problems with eight EL84's and then this recent issue with a shorting EL34. That figures at 20% of the tubes they've sold me being bad!!! I don't believe the preamp tubes are tested beyond plugging into a tester, no listening test. Fine. Tubes selected for balance or low microphics should command a premium. But noisy, hummy and grossly microphonic tubes should be culled. I don't believe power tubes are tested beyond plugging them in and recording current draw (to match idle current, as in "matched" tubes!?!). Their poor character for slighting me, poor warranty that doesn't allow for inventory, lack of adequate testing and the fact that they sold me bad tubes twice in a row will keep me far away from this vendor.

I hope this post doesn't create a conflict of interest for site ads. Rant over.

[trem]

You guys have pretty much said it all I guess. This is the place that I COME TO for advice. Not use to giving an opinion really, but.....
I hear a much bigger change from speakers than I do from tubes. Much bigger.!
But then again, I read All The Time about guys hearing:
1. More complex and gradual roll-off in the upper mids.
2. Smoother and more organic Bass Response.
3. Less "sterile" and harsh high end above the 12th fret.
4. Etc etc etc.
And that is just because they changed from a (pick a color) yellow cap to a blue cap.
I have always been suspicious of what guys say they can hear if I cannot. I tend to only trust a blind or at least "honest" opinion.
And how much does it matter anyway. Unless the change is Severe..... can you not just turn a knob or two and get on with your life.?
I never thought that music was "about" sitting in a sound proof room, and trying to hear the difference between 20 gage wire with Red insulation as compared to 22 gage wire with White insulation.
I respectfully hand this back to you guys. I am a real novice et this stuff.
Thank You

[Leo_Gnardo]

The great ones can plug into anything, with anything and their sensibilities key in and say "Hey, listen to this musical thing that's happening!" Instead of "This amp is harsh. I need another." The good players are too busy making music to be petty about small details.

Occasionally they can play games with you too. I had to gently upbraid Bob Mayo one day. Told him he was playing bad on purpose, trying to wind me up. That guy could get a sound out of anything, even a rusty fire hydrant. He really had "the touch" and voice too. Sadly gone now for @ 10 years.

[Leo_Gnardo]

That figures at 20% of the tubes they've sold me being bad!!!

One thing we don't do, and should, is test all tubes upon arrival. In amps. That way if there's an issue it can be sorted within the warranty period. I'll admit to having that failing myself.

Note to self - must be more disciplined - when that box o tubes arrives spend the next 3 days plugging them into amps, listening & looking, and even smelling for trouble.

Practically, I'm so busy it would be damn near impossible. But if the fault is found outside the warranty, it's on me.

[Jazz P Bass]

[QUOTE=Leo_Gnardo;300179]Note to self - must be more disciplined - when that box o tubes arrives spend the next 3 days plugging them into amps, listening & looking, and even smelling for trouble.
QUOTE]
That is a good time to 'sort' them for how much idle current they draw (at one set bias voltage).
Matching.