Different brands of power tubes!?!

[Chuck H]

It's been my experience that the contribution of power tube clipping is fairly consistent (within type). Even among new and old tubes!!! I find the right output transformer and voltage affects the tone MORE than the actual brand or make of tube. Here's a video of a shootout that demonstrates the point better than I can by yammering on:

EL34 comparison Mullard vs Siemens vs Sovtek vs Telefunken vs Svetlana vs Electroharmonix, etc - YouTube

There are a couple of duds and maybe one that shines above the rest, but the difference is so subtle as to be neglected IMHO.

Now... What's interesting to me about this vid is that the watts produced are displayed, but the audio is adjusted so that everything is at the same volume!!! I think the difference between spatial, natural compression and whatever was done for this comparison may be significant to a player in the room!!!

Looking forward to opinions/analysis.

[bob p]

i'm going to move to my PC that has a better audio system so that I can give your video a listen.

One thing that I hate about youtube is that their audio codec really sucks. IMO it makes everything sound like crap. another way to say that is that it takes good sounding things and crappy sounding things and makes them both sound the same, so I'm not sure i'd trust my ears to tell me much about tone from a youtube video.

[Enzo]

I have to say, if I stare into my crappy computer speakers, and REALLY listen, I can detect some subtleties. But if that had not been the assignment in the first place, I could easily think I was just hearing a loop.

[bob p]

OK. I listened to the video on a set of larger PC speakers, but they're still el-cheapo PC speakers not real HiFi speakers.

I really don't like the way they did the presentation. In my opinion, they should have played all of the soundclips without telling you what you were listening to, so that your listening experience would not become biased by your expectations. They should have said "Tube A" and "Tube B", etc., and then told you the identities of the tubes at the end of the video.

Based upon the way that they presented the clips, I have to agree with your observations -- in that youtube video all things tended to sound pretty similar. I honestly don't know whether that means that: A) I have crappy ears, B) I have crappy PC speakers, or C) youtube makes everything sound the same, or D) recorded shootout videos dont' capture in the recording the kind of things that we can hear/feel in a live environment, or E) operating point is what really matters more than anything else.

So I don't know if (A) or (B) or (C) or (D) or (E) is true, but if I can trust the video playback on my speakers, the conclusion is that the tubes sound pretty much the same and that we shouldn't be fussing all that much over NOS tubes.

I find the idea that everything sounds the same to be really hard to swallow. Sure, we all want to believe that NOS Mullards sound better than ValveArt, so we try to convince ourselves that the differences are real whenever we can. But I honestly believe that in real life, the tubes do sound different, even when stuck into an amp that has the same operating points for the tube. I honestly think that some tubes do sound different, but that the difference is subtle rather than overt, and that people make a bigger deal out of tubes than they should. Personally, I have a stash of NOS tubes, but I don't buy NOS tubes when I'm shopping, I buy new production tubes because I don't think the difference matters THAT much. With that said, I think the youtube video just may not be good enough of an audio medium to reveal some subtle differences that I think you might be able to hear live.

I remember that rivera did a speaker shootout, and that in that speaker shootout the speakers tended to sound very much alike, when in real life that hasn't been my experience. In real life, speakers sound more different than they did in the video, and the video suggested that all the speakers sounded more alike than they did in real life.

The only real conclusion that I can draw from this is that I don't trust youtube audio. It would be interesting to download higher quality audio from the rivera site and listen to it on a better setup.

[bob p]

Rivera Speaker Shootout

[bob p]

Listening to the speaker shootout again, I thought that the only speakers that sounded really BAD were the tone-tubbies and the JBL. They were sort of dull and lifeless. Everything else sounded like something I could live with.

I think that the Rivera video made the speakers sound more similar than they are in real life. Speakers like the EV, the V30 and the Tonker really DO sound VERY different, though they didn't sound all that different in the video. So I'm going to extrapolate a little and say that I know that the speaker shootout video tends to minimize the differences between the speakers and gives you the false impression that they sound more the same than they do in real life. Extrapolating to the tube video tells me that I can't trust the audio.

[Chuck H]

I fully agree that whatever compression levels are used with the recordings, combined with whatever is happening to those recordings via Youtube, is an unfair equalizer... Wait... Equalizer!?! That's the point then isn't it? What I'm actually listening for (when using mediocre computer monitors) is a difference in modulation! Not EQ! My head/ear processing has learned to separate the two, lo these many years of amp tweaking. And IMHO the right speakers are vital! And indeed, the way the active load plays in conjunction with the amp has a major roll! But with a given amp and speaker (a controlled environment) the difference in modulation between power tubes and their clipped component is really small!!!

In real world listening environments the differences are bigger, yes. But the difference between speakers is MUCH bigger than the difference between power tubes IMHE. Will I give up my meager collection of NOS power tubes??? Not on your life! Will I reserve them for projects where I think their "mojo" is just as important as their tonal contribution? You bet. And the way I see it, everyone wins! I don't feel like I'm losing (because I know how small the difference is) and someone else get's to feel like they're winning! And I might even get paid!?!

On a new project I just built I auditioned a brand new pair of Tung Sol EL34L's, some old Sovtek EL34WXT's and a pair of Sovtek EL34B's. One of the Tung Sols shorted plate to heater immediately. So no fight in those turds. The Sovtek WXT's sounded a bit sterile and had some odd distortions. Then I found one of the pair was weak and failing. So in went the Sovtek El34B's. It's an older design that was a cheap tube at the time. They sound fabulous! I don't even feel the need to seek "working" alternatives even though my only comparisons were unqualified. So there you go. Consider that, in the video, the audible difference between vintage Mullards and cheap Chinese tubes was so very small!!! I know "Youtube, Ya ya ya. Blah, blah, blah. DON'T CARE! The real difference is in the OT and speaker as to the EQ. The only significant difference for the power tubes to supply is then modulation. And I just don't hear enough to make a big fuss about.

[bob p]

> No fight in those turds.

LOL.

Part of the problem with these "shootouts" is that they sample a single point on what is a very large performance curve for an amp/tube/speaker combination. A one-point comparison makes it really hard to sense the difference in "feel" that you get when looking at a "curve". But I agree, tubes probably sound more alike than speakers (if the turds work!)

Of course, the real problem could be that I can't hear tonal differences as well as the gurus.

The natural question that I have to ask after hearing the tube shootout is: What brand of tubes is Rivera shipping with their amps? I guarantee that the shootout made their tube of choice sound good.

Perhaps the only real worthwhile piece of information that I got from the first video is that Rivera is using Nichicon and CDE snap-in caps in their supply filters. A good choice IMO.

[Enzo]

And an all time quote in my view, I think it was Eric Clapton, "OH just give me an amp, I'll get a tone out of it."

I have been very happy with the results using the Ruby EL34BSTR. Sound good, work good, none have blown up on me yet.

[Steve Conner]

A while back, we took one of these "shootouts" done by George at Metro Amps, and converted it to a blind test by editing out the voiceover where he identified the different parts. I did this myself, but someone over at Metro Amps did it independently too.

I thought they sounded quite different when I was primed by the voiceover, but in blind test mode the differences just vanished. The test was mostly about capacitors, but there were also some NOS Mullard preamp tubes thrown in there vs. whatever new production tubes he was using. They sounded identical.

I was so surprised by the Mullard vs. new production thing that I set up a full ABX test in which I scored no better than chance. I must set up a similar experiment with power tubes one day.

This was done with uncompressed WAV files and good gear at both ends.

[bob p]

>> I think it was Eric Clapton, "OH just give me an amp, I'll get a tone out of it."

I heard something similar -- I remember hearing Keith Richards say that he could take any amp and make it sound like Keith Richards. I'm going to bite my lip and not go into a long discussion on how hit or miss I think Clapton's tone is. I mean where did his tone go starting in the mid-80s? That awful period with the Soldano amps and all of the chorus...

[Steve Conner]

I think it's been going downhill ever since the Beano album.

[Enzo]

Well, pick your guy then. Point was not to worry so much about the amp. Lots of guys on records I hear, makes me think "You WANTED it to sound like that?"

[Leo_Gnardo]

I have been very happy with the results using the Ruby EL34BSTR. Sound good, work good, none have blown up on me yet.

Second that! Been using Ruby's EL34BHT also. Only occasional problem, low frequency microphony. Every now & then I get one that rings like Big Ben.

<from Chuck: no fight in those turds> I was warned early-on about the so-called "reissue" TungSol tubes. First reports were that 12AX7's were shorting with some regularity (2006). Then the 6V6 which look and act exactly like EH 6V6. Which means breaking down quick when the B+ is over 400V. Not a matter of too-high bias either. Just arcing internally. Similar problems with their 6L6 & EL34. It kils me when customers bring in their smoking amps and tell me they bought TS because they equate their inflated price with "quality", also read online reviews that give them "five star" status. I really don't care what recycled logo is printed on the glass - IMHO Mike Matthews has sold another load of bollocks. Good for him.

[Chuck H]

Yupper. I had a lot less trouble with tubes when I was salvaging them or buying from a major distributor like Ruby or Groove Tubes than I have since buying them from on line houses (types selected for their on line shootout reviews?!?). I think I need to go back to buying from Ruby or Groove Tubes. I just don't like paying a premium for Chinese tubes. But well selected and tested seems to matter more than birthplace!

The TS EL34L's were brand new from Thetubestore. I had them sitting on a shelf about five months. So, no longer covered by any warranty. Anyone need a single EL34 for a project?