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Thread: Trace Elliot AH1000-12 schematic needed

  1. #1
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    Trace Elliot AH1000-12 schematic needed

    Hi,

    I've bought a Trace Elliot AH1000-12 with one power amp module blown.
    Is there someone that can share its schematic?

    I would like to repair it, otherwise to substitute it with two class D power amp modules, keeping the power supply as is. Due to the higher efficiency of class d amps, there will be two paths: keep the same output power and make the power supply's life easier, or increase a bit the possible output power. I'd go for the former, as 1000 W are absolutely more than what I'll never use.

    Thank you in advance

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    I've found this link: https://elektrotanya.com/trace-ellio.../download.html
    But there's not everything. Has someone ever substitued those power amp modules with something different?

    Thanks!

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  3. #3
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    If you do not need the full 1000 watt output power, then why do you not simply run the one amplifier at 500 watts?

    I would disconnect any power leads going to the dead module.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Edit: have you checked the fuses?

    I had one of these a while back with a 'dead' module and the fault turned out to be the Speakon output connector, not the amp.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    I've bought a Trace Elliot AH1000-12 with one power amp module blown.
    Is there someone that can share its schematic?
    When was yours made?
    Manufacturers keep famous bestselling names but change guts now and then; older ones had Class AB "analog" Lateral MosFet outputs, big heatsinks and heavy power transformers, modern ones use lightweight SMPS and Class D power amps, show your amp guts to be certain.
    Front panel and general cosmetics may be the same.
    I would like to repair it, otherwise to substitute it with two class D power amp modules, keeping the power supply as is. Due to the higher efficiency of class d amps, there will be two paths: keep the same output power and make the power supply's life easier, or increase a bit the possible output power. I'd go for the former, as 1000 W are absolutely more than what I'll never use.
    No, just one path: same power with colder amp.
    Power supply defines output power, the power amp is just the "faucet" which sends more or less of it to the speakers.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Thanks for the feedback Jazz P Bass. Im sure its dead because I bought from a guy who tried to fix it, and almost destroyed that module. I would prefer to find two class d substitutes for those modules instead of running just one module.

    Have you ever done something similar?

    Thanks in advance

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  6. #6
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    Thanks J M Fahey,

    I have the one with the heavy big thoroidal and the two modules with class AB mosfets.

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  7. #7
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Ok, how many MosFets per board?

    They use the same circuit in all amps , not their own desigh but a Hitachi MosFet application example, straight from the datasheet, just with various supply voltages and more or less output transistors.

    Largest I have ir AH500 , meaning 2 x 250W modules with 4 MosFets each; suspect yours is same but with 6 transistors per module.
    At least similar Ashdown Mag 500 has the same circuit with one module and 6 transistors.
    Nothing new under the Sun.

    Check whether this roughly matches what you have.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    personally I would repair the dead module, to the extent of cloning its PCB if original is destroyed, go figure.
    It is a very simple and nrobust amplifier, eqasy to service in the future, and you already have all the hardware mounted in the proper place (specially heatsinks).

    Worst case go the Class D route, but you will have to mechanically adapt them to fit "inside a suit made for somebody else" and consider them disposable if anything happens.

    Or plain pull the dead Class AB module and just use the working 500W one , as suggested above.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Hi Juan Manuel,

    I'll be out for the entire week, I will give you the right answers (and maybe a photo) this weekend.
    I remember six or eight MosFets, but I want to give you a correct answer not to waste your time.

    Clone the PCB would a bit over my capabilities, also because alot of components on the power amp are smd.
    I will give you better answers in a few days.

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  9. #9
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Ok, I was thinking you might have the earliest ones which used through hole components.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    I've found a photo of an amp like mine, it's actually the same Jazz P Bass posted few posts ago.
    Power amp modules are a mix of SMD and hole through.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Some more photos of the broken module (more on the following posts).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  12. #12
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    Some more will follow
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  13. #13
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    Some more...
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  14. #14
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    Even more...
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  15. #15
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    Last triplet of photos.
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  16. #16
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Oh sh*t, those are Class D modules.
    I had thought you had one of the earlier ones, similar to the schematic I posted above, which *are* repairable, very simple amps.
    I consider these ones disposable.
    One failed? ... just disconnect it and use the other, which still has huge power.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

  17. #17
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    Thanks Juan Manuel,

    imagine to have both modules broken (insert apotropaic gesture here), what would you do?
    As you can see in the same module there are:
    - rectifier and power supply;
    - part of the preamp module;
    - clip detection;
    - etc...

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  18. #18
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    If you want to fix the module, start with cleaning it . Then look for visible problems like the one posted below.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    You are in a very good position because you have the other module working correctly and you have the schematic.

    Mark

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  19. #19
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    I *think* the following, lots of educated guessing and of course subject to verification:

    1) the Elektrotanya set of schematics contain both preamps (7 and 12 band) , lots of auxiliary circuits, some cntainibg less than half a dozen parts, but not a word on power amps and supplies.

    2) I suppose these were kept because they are the core of the SWR sound but power amps and supplies varied along the years, so the design was modular from Day 1.
    Specially because even in the old Analog Mosfet amp days, same 2 preamp variations were mated to a lot of (very similar by the way) power amps, from single 150W (AH150) to top of the line AH500 (2 x 250W modules) and *maybe* a model I never saw but is very predictable, a 400/500W single module but with probably 6 Mosfets, still Class AB.

    3) so maybe at some time they decided to fit *two* 500W power modules, but considering thermal dissipation they went Class D . Funny they kept the very heavy (and probably very expensive) toroidal transformer, but hey, they are probably going "one step at a time".

    4) It can be independent, but I guess they included the Preamp supply together with the main power amp one.
    Check what they actually did, specially now that at least 1 power amp and supply is still alive, draw connector pinout and voltages feeding Preamp, so the day this module dies you can feed bthe preamp some other way.
    No big deal, consumption is low, but pre-knowing it may save you time if/when you need it, and your amp does not turn on.

    5) IF the current module dies, junk both, build a preamp supply and in the now free real estate space searfch for some power module you like.
    I would go the full Monty, get one with self contained SMPS power supply and also ditch the heavy Toroid.

    For example, IcePower modules , very popular today and used by Fender, G&K, Aguilar, TC Electronics, Kustom and probably quite a few more, are straight fed 120 or 240V, provide lots of power, and also generate +/-28V for preamp use, which of course can be regulated down to whatevers needed.


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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    That's strange because I see the power amp and the power supply schematic in the download. Maybe a processor board that controls all the modules is missing but maybe they designed it without a processor.
    Here it is once again. AC019-F Schematics.pdf

    It's true that the symbols of the components are made up by TE but maybe on the board they are correct.

    Mark

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  21. #21
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    It uses these modules AC018-B SDV1025-600_1_ETS.pdf

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    Experience is something you get, just after you really needed it.

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    Which maybe purchased and simply replaced: 600W Amplifier Products ? Or sent to them to be fixed.

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  23. #23
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    Im in love guys. Thank you very much! I will keep you updated both for the ETS and ICE solutions.

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  24. #24
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkusBass View Post
    That's strange because I see the power amp and the power supply schematic in the download. Maybe a processor board that controls all the modules is missing but maybe they designed it without a processor.
    Here it is once again. AC019-F Schematics.pdf

    It's true that the symbols of the components are made up by TE but maybe on the board they are correct.

    Mark
    Weird, NO such .PDF in my Elektrotanya download as linked in post #2
    Mind you, I opened all of them.
    Weird.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    Weird, NO such .PDF in my Elektrotanya download as linked in post #2
    Mind you, I opened all of them.
    Weird.
    It's because the file is in the Word (*.doc) format. Have you opened the the Word file?

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  26. #26
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    It is exactly this one: http://www.amplifier.co.uk/images/SDV1061-600_1_ETS.pdf
    I've already dropped them an email.

    Thank you very much guys!

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  27. #27
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    Did you look at the component I posted previously? It looks like a termistor in series with the power supply. If it's open, or incorrectly soldered, it may cause the problems you have. Can you make a better photo of the component?

    Mark

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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkusBass View Post
    Did you look at the component I posted previously? It looks like a termistor in series with the power supply. If it's open, or incorrectly soldered, it may cause the problems you have. Can you make a better photo of the component?

    Mark
    Thanks Mark, unfortunately I will have access to the amp only next sunday, because I'll be out for work. I will try that too.

    By now I've got some email exchange with the producers of the module: they forwarded me to the site shown here for the small module, but they have no SDV1061-600 stock, and they can produce them only if they get at least 100 units. And they do not repair it, even if it's their module being broken. I thought it was not even legal to do so, but it is.

    No feedback from ICE yet.

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    Last edited by Roberto; 04-30-2018 at 03:25 PM. Reason: Updated information on module

  29. #29
    Supporting Member Jazz P Bass's Avatar
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    That SDV1061-600 is an evaluation board.

    The item that ETS makes is the SDV1025-600.
    It is a very small part of the Trace Elliot amplifier module itself.

    http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...000-12-07.jpeg

    See those 2 rows of little pins .
    That is the module.
    Tucked underneath.

    SDV1025-600_1_ETS.pdf

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  30. #30
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    Thanks Jazz P Bass,

    That was clear to me. I took three photo of it on the last triplet.
    What I'm afraid of, is that the previous owner did some other damages on the board, so I would prefer to find the whole module. Let's see.

    Thank you.

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  31. #31
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkusBass View Post
    It's because the file is in the Word (*.doc) format. Have you opened the the Word file?
    No.
    I opened all .pdf because thats the standard format for schematics, data, books, and a ton other things, can be zoomed to *any* size , and I mean ANY, you can take snapshots, make images automatically fit the page (for printing) or show stuff exact 100% size (real world reference), print it accurately real size on a sheet of paper (thats why its the preferred way to distribute iron-on PCB patterns , the works.
    Other graphic file types are used, such as .gif, .png, .jpg (this one more suited to family holiday pictures than schematics) but none can even touch the precision of true .pdf vector graphics.
    Of course, *some* .pdf are FAKE Pdf, just .pdf compressed bitmap image scans, not the same by a country mile.

    Yes, I saw a couple "Office" type files in the Zip pack, but since two of them were .xls parts list files (which is sensible because it helps handling parts stock in a Factory environment ) and two were setup and adjustment instructions, essentially "text" where .doc files make sense, when I saw a third .doc file labelled *****schematics.doc, I reasonably assumed it was a list (and maybe description) of the mountain of .pdf files included : 34 !!!!! (thirty-four, not a typo)

    After opening all 34 and not finding what I wanted, why on Earth would I open a presumed "file list" after I had opened all of them?

    Oh well, further proof that Lawyers and Accountants (plus the random MBA) run the World and Techs and Engineers if travelling by Bus must seat in the back, behind the white line

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz P Bass View Post
    That SDV1061-600 is an evaluation board.

    The item that ETS makes is the SDV1025-600.
    It is a very small part of the Trace Elliot amplifier module itself.

    http://music-electronics-forum.com/a...000-12-07.jpeg

    See those 2 rows of little pins .
    That is the module.
    Tucked underneath.

    SDV1025-600_1_ETS.pdf
    I would phone ETS again to check if they have any spare SDV1025-600 left, and at what price.

    Evaluation boards are very good but typically made only in small quantities, a Factory or independent designer might buy 1 or 2 to test whether the product mates with the rest of his product, design *his* own PCB covering his personal needs and then just purchase the SDV1025-600 in bulk.

    Since this is a very outdated product, a transition type making it possible to retain most of the older product, including expensive and heavy iron power transformer, just saving on heatsinks (because board size is huge for what it does) , I very much doubt they are selling any now, except maybe a few as replacements for old amp servicing.

    Revolutionary 20 yers ago, today its a dodo, replaced by similar power, smaller size, included SMPS modules, which to boot are cheaper.

    Id ask for a spare SDV1025-600 module alone if available, if price is reasonable (by now they should have a fire sale on them) , take the chance and replace it on the moherboard.

    If not available or very expensive or you simply do not trust the motherboard, Id just go for a new module, and somehow try to feed the preamp one way or the other.
    In fact I would ditch even the obsolete working one , *and* the heavy toroid and fit a single ICE module there.

    Your back will be grateful

    Note: ICE are known for NOT catering to end users, I guessnthey have a minimum oder pack, say 50 or 100 units in a single carton, so they normally sell to Factories.

    That said, I guess some people need, say, 30 of them, are forced to buy the, say, 50 unit minimum order, because now and then a few appear on EBay, from US sellers, at reasonable price (hey, they want to sell the overstock), so EBay is an option.
    Of course , then theres none offered until somebody else does the same a couple months later.

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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by J M Fahey View Post
    Id ask for a spare SDV1025-600 module alone if available, if price is reasonable (by now they should have a fire sale on them) , take the chance and replace it on the moherboard.
    Not sure what price is reasonable, but profusion has them listed: SDV1025-600 - 600W Driver Board

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    But, I did learn something. There are protons, neutrons, electrons, ............ and morons.

  34. #34
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    Thanks Juan Manuel and thanks g1.

    Yes, Ive seen that link at around 75 plus shipping (so I guess around 90 ).

    Juan Manuel, can you tell me how much can cost the ICE module on ebay? Im not in a hurry so I can wait, no problem.

    90 isnt cheap for the small module itself, and it would be easy to fit a class D amp with SMPS onboard. Dig the big toroidal and add a small one for 12ax7s B+ and heaters (probably I have already one somewhere).

    The main point, in that scenario, would be to keep the distinctive feature of this amp (even if I never used it): it can work stereo with its own stereo loop, or bridged.

    Will the 1200AS2 do the job?

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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto View Post
    90 isnt cheap for the small module itself
    I'm surprised that you think that 90 isn't cheap. This amp is worth about 500 . Newer amps with similar power cost 1000 , or more.
    When I fix amps the first rule is to bring it to the state as it was when it left the factory. Then, you may think about possible modifications.
    The ICE modules are extremely difficult to buy and they cost about 200 -250 . You would need two of them. And this would be crazy to pay 500 to fix an amp that is worth 500
    I'm not sure how reliable athe the original modules but I would go for the original. Otherwise, you would pay 400-500 (and you would need to work for free).

    Mark

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