Electrical engineers: is this possible?

[Bad Daddy DeVille]

Hey there, jazbo8. I tried three different amps (Vox AC4C1, Vox AC15C1, Marshall Haze 15) and about seven different speakers: Greenback 10, Eminence custom 10, Greenback 12, Bad Cat 12 by Celestion, Warehouse Veteran 30, Eminence Patriot, and Electrovoice 12L. I used three different condenser mics, a Shure SM57 and SM58. I tried different positions of the mic in front of the cabinet --close, not so close, far, on axis, off axis, toward the dust cap, toward the edge and at various points in between. I used an Onyx Blackjack interface, which supposedly has very good a/d converters, and I didn't record into the red, since I was recording digitally. After I recorded the signals, I'd use Logic X to "normalize" the files to bring their strongest parts up to 0db. So the fizzy sizzle you heard on my previous tracks was all coming from the amps/speakers.

After literally a month of driving myself crazy trying to get a good sound, when I plugged in that $149 Orange MicroTerror and heard crunch perfection... it blew my mind. I simply couldn't believe it. I got pissed off thinking of all the money I'd spent on amps and speakers---then I realized, "Hey, so what! The important thing is that you've found your tone! That's what matters."

Now, you may well be right that the MicroTerror is "one-dimensional". It's going to have this one basic character. The tone control is very powerful, where a tiny adjustment yields a noticeable difference. So, if I dialed out the mids I could get a metal sound---but I'm an Old School blues/rock guy. I'm not going to go for metal. Nor would I jack up the treble. The main differences available to me will be clean, mild crunch, heavy crunch and distortion, all with the general MicroTerror character.

I'm okay with that. Also, I'll be selling the Marshall Haze 15 on eBay since the Orange MicroTerror does what I'd wanted a Marshall for, but I'm going to hold onto the Vox AC15C1 with that Bad Cat speaker in it. It doesn't do "crunch" like the MicroTerror, but I can have that famous Vox "sparkle" and "chime" on my rhythm guitar parts, keeping them distinct from the MicroTerror parts.

That little amp is the best $150 I ever spent!

[jazbo8]

Great, thanks! MT is going on my shopping list.

[Bad Daddy DeVille]

Just be thankful I didn't come here raving about the tone I got from some hand-wired boutique amp made by monks in the Himalayas. It's only a hundred and fifty bucks. Oh, and I put a High Gain PM tube in it, so add another eighteen bucks to the total. It sounded fine with the stock tube, though.

[Mick Bailey]

I'm hearing the guitar with the MT, rather than guitar-controlled hash that increasingly seems to be the norm these days. Nice clips.

[Bad Daddy DeVille]

I'm hearing the guitar with the MT, rather than guitar-controlled hash that increasingly seems to be the norm these days. Nice clips.

Thanks, Mike. But... I don't understand what you mean by "guitar-controlled hash"? Do you mean, like, PODs and digital amp simulations and stuff like that?

[mushy]

I'm hearing the guitar with the MT, rather than guitar-controlled hash that increasingly seems to be the norm these days. Nice clips.

I think that is a pretty accurate description of amp modeling > "guitar-controlled hash"

[Bad Daddy DeVille]

Got it. And boy, do I agree. Amp modeling only approximates the sound of various tube amps while leaving out the important part: the influence of the overdriven tube on the signal. The Micro Terror amp is a solid state power amp amplifying the output of a tube-driven preamp. Without the tube, the amp would sound like crap.

[Justin Thomas]

Another thing about modeling - they all model the same amps... tweed Bassman, Marshall Super Lead, Twin Reverb, AC30, etc. There's nothing wrong with an awesome example of any of those amps, but, Boring! I happen to like my 62 Concert - who models that? And there's no Ampeg or Gibson models, Silvertones, etc. Or crazy off-brand junkers. These amps may not be an industry standard, but most of them do at least one thing really cool, and it gets lost. So while I believe modeling amps have a place and a purpose if you have to go from Buddy Holly to Pantera in the same gig, they will never capture the quirky & dirty little tone monsters that sound so friggin cool. I loke playing wacky amps - nobody sounds like me!

Yes, a friend of mine got a hold of one of those profiling amps. Great TOOL for studio use where you have the time to get it just right, but live, he went back to his 2-channel Marshall.

Justin

[mushy]

Another thing about modeling - they all model the same amps... tweed Bassman, Marshall Super Lead, Twin Reverb, AC30, etc.

It's all just marketing stuff, any way. None of the models sound like the real amps, although some do well at 'hinting' toward an amp's character. I think that current dsp tech is incapable of reproducing the dynamic waveforms of amp circuits and speaker interaction. The clipping of modeled amps is more like a transistor than a tube, and speaker impulses are static. Also, modeling has always sounded hollow and anemic to me, where some of those classics sound really fat and biting without being harsh (much less hashy). I'm sure that someone is modeling Silvertone's and such, but it really would be a bad joke with current dsp, I think.

Those profiling amps capture a static response? No?

[Bad Daddy DeVille]

I truly despise PODs and their ilk, and though I bought Amplitube when it first came out, I found it unusable. It would sound vaguely like the amp it was simulating but then it was missing the thing about that amp that made it desirable in the first place. Kind of like the difference between Elvis and an Elvis impersonator. What I actually have found useful is cab sims. In Logic Pro, there's an effect called "Amp Designer". You send your DI'd guitar track into, then pick an amp head, a cab, and a mic. You can move the simulated mic around to position it nearer or farther away from the grill cloth, and from the dust cap along the radius of the speaker to the edge. The amp sims are ultimately disappointing, of course. So, what I do is use this effect on a track recorded from an actual amp. In the section where you choose an amp sim, I choose "transparent" ---which means no amp simulation at all. Then I can choose various different speaker cabs and mics. This allows me to shape the character of the sound while ~retaining~ the tube amp warmth, dynamics and punch.

Logic also has an effect that allows you to load Impulse Responses, where the characteristics of a given audio environment are captured. You could, for example, load an Impulse Response that was made of an SM57 jammed up against the grille cloth of a Hi-Watt 4 x 12 cabinet, in a vast concert hall. Theoretically, that would produce the sound of your amp... coming out of that speaker cab in that environment. I haven't tried this, so I don't know how well such a thing would work.

[mushy]

I truly despise PODs and their ilk, and though I bought Amplitube when it first came out, I found it unusable. It would sound vaguely like the amp it was simulating but then it was missing the thing about that amp that made it desirable in the first place. Kind of like the difference between Elvis and an Elvis impersonator. What I actually have found useful is cab sims. In Logic Pro, there's an effect called "Amp Designer". You send your DI'd guitar track into, then pick an amp head, a cab, and a mic. You can move the simulated mic around to position it nearer or farther away from the grill cloth, and from the dust cap along the radius of the speaker to the edge. The amp sims are ultimately disappointing, of course. So, what I do is use this effect on a track recorded from an actual amp. In the section where you choose an amp sim, I choose "transparent" ---which means no amp simulation at all. Then I can choose various different speaker cabs and mics. This allows me to shape the character of the sound while ~retaining~ the tube amp warmth, dynamics and punch.

Logic also has an effect that allows you to load Impulse Responses, where the characteristics of a given audio environment are captured. You could, for example, load an Impulse Response that was made of an SM57 jammed up against the grille cloth of a Hi-Watt 4 x 12 cabinet, in a vast concert hall. Theoretically, that would produce the sound of your amp... coming out of that speaker cab in that environment. I haven't tried this, so I don't know how well such a thing would work.

I have amplitube, podfarm, and a few others, having tried nearly all the software and much of the hardware stuff. The podfarm marshall amp models into the amplitube orange and hiwatt impulses can be ok for scratching down riffs at least, but ultimately, it sounds like digital hashbrowns compared to a good amp miked. It is really hard working around dsp artifacts such as ampsim hash and hollowness. It becomes a knob tweak fest, like with digital hardware processors.

[Enzo]

Have you had the opportunity to try the PV ReValver? The concept seemed interesting, but I have never seen it live. It is a modelling software, but it goes further than Marshall/Fender/whatever, it even lets you alter the amps internal "circuit, right down to resistor values and tube types.


http://peavey.com/products/revalver/

[ron vogel]

I'm a little late to the party...but I feel your pain. I was struggling with recording a Marshall Class 5 I had...fizzed like crazy...and lots of mud. Tried everything. Tubes, speakers, custom baffles, circuit mods, mics. Sounded great in the room, but wouldn't record worth a damn. Partly to do with the el84 "sound" (which your AC4 has.) Great for balls out distortion, but the semi dirt and cleans are awful to my ears.

[Bad Daddy DeVille]

You say you "were struggling" with recording your Marshall Class 5. Does that mean you solved it and are getting sounds you like now? The producer in the studio I'm using these days told me that low-wattage amps just can't record well. I didn't believe him--- and now I don't know what to think. I had no luck with 4 watt amps, then I got two different 15 watt amps (Vox AC15C1 and Marshall HAZE 15) and they both have that same fizzy/buzzy sound with crunch and distortion. The Orange Micro Terror is a 20 watt amp and records great. Could it be the 5 extra watts? Anyway, you might want to try one: they're only $150. If your Marshall Class 5 is a combo, you could disconnect the speaker from the head and use it as a speaker cab for the Micro Terror head.

[ron vogel]

You say you "were struggling" with recording your Marshall Class 5. Does that mean you solved it and are getting sounds you like now? The producer in the studio I'm using these days told me that low-wattage amps just can't record well. I didn't believe him--- and now I don't know what to think. I had no luck with 4 watt amps, then I got two different 15 watt amps (Vox AC15C1 and Marshall HAZE 15) and they both have that same fizzy/buzzy sound with crunch and distortion. The Orange Micro Terror is a 20 watt amp and records great. Could it be the 5 extra watts? Anyway, you might want to try one: they're only $150. If your Marshall Class 5 is a combo, you could disconnect the speaker from the head and use it as a speaker cab for the Micro Terror head.

Last recording I did with the Class 5 before I sold it:
https://soundcloud.com/ron-vogel/human

Next recording I did with a vintage Champ:
https://soundcloud.com/ron-vogel/musical-chairs

I just couldn't deal with the Class 5 anymore. I could get it to work...way too much trouble though. I sold it to buy an old Champ; which was great...although I missed the push-pull sound from the Princeton I had previously and sold the champ to build a brown Princeton. Now I'm happy

I don't buy the fact you need more than 5 watts to record with. But the style of the circuit may favor itself to certain uses. I've had a couple different 5 watt 6V6 amps, and never had issues with useable recordings out of them; however I feel the Champ circuit is probably the most versatile of the bunch for the style of music I do. However the Deluxe and Princeton amps are even better in terms of versatility.

Also, both recordings used the same mics. I use a 57 up on the grille, and an AT4050 for the room; blended to taste.