Anyone use SHUGUANG tubes?

[Alan0354]

Hi Enzo

I can see what you say different brand tubes behave very similar when not push, running in linear mode. The difference show up when really pushed. Lets just use the VW analogy that it over steer when pushed during corning because the engine is at the back like the Porsche 911. That is mainly because of the engine at the back that make it tail heavy. But in the tube analogies, say all different brands of cars are made by VW that has the same design with rear engine, then when pushed, all different brand still over steer.

Seems to me if all brands are rebrand of the same manufacturer that has the same physical design, then the over drive characteristics will still be similar.

Now, if the tubes are actually made by a different manufacturer, then I agree with you. I can assure you the Sunguang 12AX7 does not look the same as some of the 12AX7 I have, it has a shinny metal thing inside as you can see in the picture. It might behave different when pushed.

[Ramsay]

No, I only use Tungsol, JJ, and Mullard.
By the way, why do you create, at less, three new topics every day??

[Audiotexan]

Yes, there are only three (maybe 4) factories currently making tubes in scale: Shuguang in China, Reflektor (Sovtek) in Russia, and JJ in the Czech Republic. Is SED (the original Svetlana) still making tubes for our common guitar amps?

So unless it's old stock used or new, if it's new production, it came from one of those three factories. Anything else is tested/rebranded/screened etc, or custom made for a distributor to their specs. But it still came from one of those factories.

To the best of my knowledge, yes, SED is still alive and kicking DBA as =C= (oft referred to as winged C).

But I've often wondered what the 'realities' are for current manufacture that I might have overlooked.

Including what you listed above, I know/have heard of:

Sovtek (dist. by New Sensor) Reflector factory
=C= (SED) St. Petersburg factory
Shuguang (China)
Sino (China) -smaller scale than Shug. though.
JJ (Czech Republic)

And then compounded by the EH/Mullard/Tung-Sol reissue crap arriving from a couple of the above. But not sure offhand which those originate from Reflector or Cz.

Correct me as needed.

Is Ei (Nis Yugoslavia) still active? or did we lose them in the ongoing struggles? (which rings vaguely familiar)

Also curious about what happened to the plants in Japan that were using the old RCA and Philips equipment?? (Hitachi, Matsushita, Toshiba)

[Leo_Gnardo]

To the best of my knowledge, yes, SED is still alive and kicking DBA as =C= (oft referred to as winged C).

No, the "real" Svetlana, which distributed to the USA as =C=, ONLY makes giant RF tubes now. No more "consumer tubes" for you & me & the rest of us. Stan personally bought the last 3 6550's they had, and he got the word right from the horse's mouth so to speak. All the =C= in circulation now are leftovers from the last runs 3 or more years ago. And the prices are going up up up as the supplies dwindle.

But I've often wondered what the 'realities' are for current manufacture that I might have overlooked.

Including what you listed above, I know/have heard of:

Sovtek (dist. by New Sensor) Reflector factory
=C= (SED) St. Petersburg factory
Shuguang (China)
Sino (China) -smaller scale than Shug. though.
JJ (Czech Republic)

Scratch =C= / SED

JJ is in Slovakia, not Czech. (It was one country for about 75 years, that went away early 90's. But they do get along just fine thank goodness.)

Ruby has their mini factory in China making 5AR4. If they make anything else, I'd like to know.

There's another mini China factory that makes a 12AX7 sold as "Northern Electric". At $60 each not popular in the guitar amp world. They're almost certainly marketed under other names but at that price I have yet to see one in person.

For the hi fi crowd, there's another facility in Czech republic still making 300B and a couple other big expensive tubes. I think they're marketed as "Sophia."

There was a brief reopening of the UK Blackburn Mullard ECC83 production line a few years ago. They sent out some samples, got excellent reviews in the hi fi world, and promptly shut down. Another Wet Match Production. How disappointing!

And then compounded by the EH/Mullard/Tung-Sol reissue crap arriving from a couple of the above. But not sure offhand which those originate from Reflector or Cz.

Sovtek, EH, Mullard, TungSol, GEC-Genelex all are Russian made and sold thru New Sensor. Sometimes the "reissue" claim is BS: AFAIK GEC never made an ECC83/12AX7 but if you feel like splashing out lots of cash you can buy freshly made ones. Are they better? Yes of course, better to show off to friends who might be impressed. Like the Northern Electric I've never seen one and even my nuttiest customers haven't put 'em in their amps nor demanded that I install any.

To add to the confusements, New Sensor acquired the right to sell tubes under the name "Svetlana" in the USA - but not elsewhere - thru their acquisition of the company that first brought Svets to the US and marketed them and other tubes as "Audio Glassics" in the 80's-early 90's. New Sensor's Svetlanas also made in Russia but NOT at the Svetlana plant in St Petersburg and AFAIK sold only in the USA (check New Sensor's website - "cannot be shipped outside USA"), and add them to the ever growing list of trademarks New Sensor owns.

Richardson Electronics in USA bought the right to use the "Bugle Boy" Amperex logo early 90's, and promptly went to work stamping it on whatever they could source for a profit boost. Not often seen these days, but it does force us to look "past the glass" and examine a tube's innards to see whether they're real Amperex or relabeled whatever from Richardson. FWIW the last of the GE 6550A's were made under license late 80's by Richardson, and they seem to work well when I run across them.

Is Ei (Nis Yugoslavia) still active? or did we lose them in the ongoing struggles? (which rings vaguely familiar)

Also curious about what happened to the plants in Japan that were using the old RCA and Philips equipment?? (Hitachi, Matsushita, Toshiba)

EI closed during the early 90's Balkan wars, tried a brief reopening mid 90's but the quality was crap and they shut down permanently. Too bad because they got the Telefunken ECC83 tooling, and made some darn good tubes, though you had to test & listen to cull out a lot of clangers.

Tesla AFAIK still continues but as with SED, only big RF tubes, nothing for us. They sold all their small-tube tooling to JJ late 90's.

Haven't seen a thing from Japan since the 80's. I can only guess the machinery was scrapped. Matsushita made some darn good 5AR4/GZ34 made by trained employees on original tooling.

I'd like to know what happened to Brimar. They made some good tubes. I hope somebody has their tooling and an idea. Would be a shame if that was all scrapped.

[Audiotexan]

Thanks for chipping in Leo...

No, the "real" Svetlana, which distributed to the USA as =C=, ONLY makes giant RF tubes now. No more "consumer tubes" for you & me & the rest of us. Stan personally bought the last 3 6550's they had, and he got the word right from the horse's mouth so to speak. All the =C= in circulation now are leftovers from the last runs 3 or more years ago. And the prices are going up up up as the supplies dwindle.

.....even though you're breaking my heart. =/
I swear, as God is my witness, my favorite "current" EL34 (obviously now defunct) was Svetlana's EL34. There is -hands down- NO competition in my book.
That tube just smokes everything else out there in every area. Tone, longevity, quality...you name it. Man I hate to lose that. It's like there's a conspiracy against EL34 fans.

JJ is in Slovakia, not Czech. (It was one country for about 75 years, that went away early 90's. But they do get along just fine thank goodness.)

Updated my notes on that one. TY!
-Was that as a result of redivision of geographical boundaries? Or simply inaccuracies I picked up along the way somewhere?

Ruby has their mini factory in China making 5AR4. If they make anything else, I'd like to know.

Seconded!

Sovtek, EH, Mullard, TungSol, GEC-Genelex all are Russian made and sold thru New Sensor.

Do you know if they're all out of the same factory? (assuming Reflector if yes)
Maybe Stan could chime in with more...

...but it does force us to look "past the glass" and examine a tube's innards to see whether they're real...

Before all the nonsense with labelling on ebay, I started making note of construction methodology about 15 years ago, because too many folks trusted the labels and weren't aware of what they were actually selling, thanks to rebranding methods of olde, let alone when the 'fakes' started showing up with fresh paint.

FWIW the last of the GE 6550A's were made under license late 80's by Richardson, and they seem to work well when I run across them.

If you could educate me on any (pics especially welcome) of Richardon's construction ID indicators...I'd be in your debt again! Was not aware they were actually producing 6550's.

EI closed during the early 90's Balkan wars, tried a brief reopening mid 90's but the quality was crap and they shut down permanently. Too bad because they got the Telefunken ECC83 tooling, and made some darn good tubes, though you had to test & listen to cull out a lot of clangers.

Yeah, I was thinking in the dark recesses somewhere that I recalled the factory being partially bombed or some such... but couldn't recall for sure. :/
Their smooth plate clones weren't bad at all. Still have 1 or 2 in the "treasure trove".

Haven't seen a thing from Japan since the 80's. I can only guess the machinery was scrapped. Matsushita made some darn good 5AR4/GZ34 made by trained employees on original tooling.

I thought one of those in Japan got some of the tooling from the old Amperex/Philips plant, but with my memory being what it is...can't recall who/where.

I'd like to know what happened to Brimar. They made some good tubes. I hope somebody has their tooling and an idea. Would be a shame if that was all scrapped.

Yeah it would. One of the few tubes that I'd really like to hear, but have never had, would be the old Brimar ax7/83's with the Box plates.

Regards,
AT

[km6xz]

Juan has described it well, you hear a difference because of the complex interaction between a particular amp, in its current state of set up but the difference can't really be isolated to the tube. When someone says one brand of tubes are brighter or have more pleasing distortion they are really doing a disservice to their audiences who assume the writer really hears a difference in tubes that will translate generally to other amps and other versions labeled the same from that rebrander. The ones who claim tonal characteristics of brands are either intentionally deceiving the reader for fun or profit or are just repeating internet rumors to hide that they are clueless.

[bsco]

[QUOTE=Enzo;356672

I imagine Traynor is like Peavey or anyone else, they buy production quantities of tubes from whoever can reliably provide them. The best tube in the world is useless to an amp factory if they can only get 500 of them when they need 10,000 or more. So this month production line might be using Ruby and next month JJ. Someone like Peavey will buy tubes through Ruby instead of direct from the tube maker, often because Ruby tests, grades, and culls the bulk tubes. If PV ordered direct from the tube maker, then they would have to sort and test all the tubes.

GT is another rebreander. Hell you can often look at a GT 6L6 and read the Sovtek lettering under the GT paint. GT does not make tubes. Mesa, same deal, they do not make tubes, your new Mesa 12AX7 will be Sovtek or EH or whatever under the label. So there is no Mesa line of tubes, just other brand tubes Mesa sells.
[/QUOTE]
That is why I mentioned the vcr issue.....thousands of different brands and models but only a handful of manufacturers....tubes are the same way...Mesa don't make tubes, and neither goes Yorkville or Fender or Peavey.....they buy so many at a time that they can have whatever logo they want on them...and the average person doesn't know the difference...but will be fooled by the local music store salesman...I will have to check out these cheap tubes on ebay....just to try a couple out....that is an excellent price for a 12AX7...around here they average around $20.......depending on the "Brand" of course...

[Enzo]

In my defense from earlier. JJ is in the Slovak Republic, but when identifying Ruby Tubes, the JJ tubes have CZ at the end of the number, and that CZ stands for Czech.

[Jazz P Bass]

The tube resellers who mark them from 1-10 are obviously aware that the tubes are 'different'.

So it is not surprising to me, that if you blindly swap tubes, that they will sound different.

[km6xz]

Sure, lower emission versions, as an example, of a tube will sound different if all else is kept constant but that says nothing about what a brand or version will sound like in another amp. In the old days, tubes were intended to be swapped interchangeably so a "1" would do to recycling, now they sell it as a feature. We are able to buy tubes that just do not meet spec and have to pay full price for them now. When tube family curved meant something a new tube might have a 5% variation or less between any two random samples. Now 20-30% is not uncommon so they get different numbers for people who like how the tube interacts with their amp in the condition it is in.

I try to get tubes that are the same arbitrary number so any tube off the shelf can replace a single failed tube instead of replacing a set. It makes stocking tubes much easier and cheaper.

[Justin Thomas]

Thanks Leo, Enzo, et al for the clearup... Especially the JJ location! I knew that SED was still doing radio tubes;I jyst meant that for the mst part, aside from a few small-time operators, almost anything we get for or in our guitar amps is going to come from one of the Big 3. I know tgere are a few cottage factories out there, but we can&t afford those prices - we're musicians! And let's face it - Fender Mesa Marshall Vox Bugera Peavey etc. Are not spending $60 on a 12ax7 for their $400 guitar amp! Or probably not even in the $4000 amp...

Justin

EI - I actually bought two 6C10s a few years ago. They were NOS then, $25 each, and were definitely the last ones for miles! those tubes are mow commanding $$$! SED is soon to follow...

[g1]

There's another mini China factory that makes a 12AX7 sold as "Northern Electric". At $60 each not popular in the guitar amp world. They're almost certainly marketed under other names but at that price I have yet to see one in person.

For the hi fi crowd, there's another facility in Czech republic still making 300B and a couple other big expensive tubes. I think they're marketed as "Sophia."

From what I understand, the 300B's (Sophia), Northern Electrics, and Shuguang's are all under the TJ Full Music umbrella, which would put us back to 3 factories.
http://www.tube-fullmusic.com/products/en-product.htm
http://www.fullmusictube.com/

Edit: or perhaps TJ and Shuguang are separate factories and fullmusic is distributor?
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/china_2009/

[Leo_Gnardo]

my favorite "current" EL34 (obviously now defunct) was Svetlana's EL34. There is -hands down- NO competition in my book.
That tube just smokes everything else out there in every area. Tone, longevity, quality...you name it. Man I hate to lose that. It's like there's a conspiracy against EL34 fans.

Some people just love 'em. I think it was Daz who was going on about them a year or 2 back, but I could be mistook.

Was that as a result of redivision of geographical boundaries? Or simply inaccuracies I picked up along the way somewhere?

Post communist iron curtain restoration to earlier boundaries, early 90's. The "media" were probably redirecting our attention to something else. "If it bleeds, it leads." Not much fuss was made over the redivision of Slovakia and Czech Republics so it didn't make the news. Peace is OK with me, but doesn't make headlines.

Do you know if they're all out of the same factory? (assuming Reflector if yes)
Maybe Stan could chime in with more...

There were several Russian factories & I don't know all of them. Perhaps now just one, Reflektor. A year or 2 back I got some Voskhod 12AX7's from CE/Antique. Inside, they look much like Sovtek 12AX7A or B. No more in stock. The CE salesman said the factory was demolished.

Before all the nonsense with labelling on ebay, I started making note of construction methodology about 15 years ago, because too many folks trusted the labels and weren't aware of what they were actually selling, thanks to rebranding methods of olde, let alone when the 'fakes' started showing up with fresh paint.

As the smarter hi fi folks have learned to do. The tube printing can be done at the factory, or at the distributor.

If you could educate me on any (pics especially welcome) of Richardon's construction ID indicators...I'd be in your debt again! Was not aware they were actually producing 6550's.

I know of no such. They picked up where GE left off, did a creditable job, and stopped when they ran out of the plate material which was a 5-layer engineering wonder made by Texas Instruments. By the time Richardson took over, the machinery and building at TI had been reduced to rubble. Who in the future would go to the trouble of duplicating that TI metal?

I thought one of those in Japan got some of the tooling from the old Amperex/Philips plant, but with my memory being what it is...can't recall who/where.

I've seen that too, for the GZ34/5AR4 but who knows what others.

One of the few tubes that I'd really like to hear, but have never had, would be the old Brimar ax7/83's with the Box plates.

Those were used in late 70's - early 80's Marshalls. I'm a fan of Brimar's version of the 12AT7. They also made British military versions of 6SN7, 6SL7, 6V6 and some others. Now rare & expensive.

Enzo mentioned Ruby still uses CZ as the suffix for the JJ tubes they test, grade & sell. It's a leftover from the days when Tesla was the source. These days Ruby's CZ = JJ regardless of actual country of origin.

g-one thanks again, for reminding me of TJ Fullmusic. I was trying to remember that name - they're the source of tubes sold as Northern Electric 12AX7. I'll have to read those links. I was unaware of TJ being the umbrella company for Shuguang and/or Sophia. It's possible I've misremembered Sophia and swapped them in my tiny mind for VAIC, another Czech manufacturer of esoteric tubes sought by well-heeled hi fi folks.

[g1]

g-one thanks again, for reminding me of TJ Fullmusic. I was trying to remember that name - they're the source of tubes sold as Northern Electric 12AX7. I'll have to read those links. I was unaware of TJ being the umbrella company for Shuguang and/or Sophia. It's possible I've misremembered Sophia and swapped them in my tiny mind for VAIC, another Czech manufacturer of esoteric tubes sought by well-heeled hi fi folks.

Sorry Leo but I seem to have been mislead by people playing fast and loose with the term "full music", perhaps it is from some generic Chinese term. It would seem there is a company called TJ Full Music that is a factory, but also a company called Full Music that is a seller or distributor for Shuguang. They do not seem to be the same company.
So it would seem there are in fact 2 Chinese tube factories (as seen in the tour link China Grand Tour 2009 Join me as we explore many of China's high-end audio manufacturing facilities. Reports By Steven R. Rochlin ).

[Leo_Gnardo]

Sorry Leo but I seem to have been mislead by people playing fast and loose with the term "full music", perhaps it is from some generic Chinese term. It would seem there is a company called TJ Full Music that is a factory, but also a company called Full Music that is a seller or distributor for Shuguang. They do not seem to be the same company.
So it would seem there are in fact 2 Chinese tube factories.

No worrries, it's China, it's confusing. Maybe they meant Fool Music? So with Ruby's 5AR4 facility count 3 Chinese factories. Huge, small, and tiny. Now there's some counterfeits of old hi price tubes being made, Western Electric for instance, apparently in China too. Where are those factories?

If I'm feeling rich sometime I'll check some Northerns out. So far I haven't seen any review of them for guitar gear. All it will take is one trend-setting "star" to announce he's using 'em and the rush will be on.

Stan asked a question way back there in post #8, after I mentioned the bright pingy sound of Shuguang 12AX7's. I can hear it in just about any amp, and more so if it's high gain with several triodes cascaded. I'm sure as you say all the brands measure the same on the test rig, flat from DC to a couple dozen MHz, but that rig isn't being shaken by a speaker only a couple inches away. Even in non combo amps, they seem awfully bright, too much to explain by vibration. Let's use our ears as well as test gear. Compare and you won't be able to deny there's a difference. How it comes about I can't explain. All I know is, my ears tell me they sound different.

The capacitor crowd has been debating along similar lines since the late 70's. Tantalum caps are supposed to be death for passing audio. But I have a console crammed with tantalums, done thousands of live mixes and many recordings as well. No complaints. But I don't build circuits with 'em. Go figure. And the cable nuts, yikes! On Audio Asylum you can't even mention "Double Blind Test" on the cables board without getting kicked out. And they're one of the more respectable audio discussion websites.

Depending on the amp and what kind of tone the guitarist is after, extra brightness could be an asset. If you're going for Robbie Robertson style pinch harmonics for instance, Shuggies are the ones to have. I'll admit I don't have any fancy test stand, no double blind boogie woogie, no crowds of random listeners filling out forms or wearing electrodes on their scalps. Just an amp about a foot in front of me on the workbench. Try one tube as the first stage pre, then another, they sound different. Even if I match the tubes under test and select ones with identical gain. The differences correlate by manufacturer, the most obvious difference between the standard Shuguang and JJ 12AX7. Same guitar, same amp, everything. I know the ear has a very short memory but the differences cannot be denied. I try my best to use what's appropriate for the customer's needs.