The cost of gear, some interesting data

[bob p]

Four food groups:
Grease, starch, chocolate, and pickles.

No, no, no. Everyone knows that the four food groups are:

Fat, Salt, Alcohol and Caffeine.

(a cameo appearance just for the sake of a good argument)

[Malcolm Irving]

To celebrate the 60th anniversary of VOX and 25 years ownership by KORG, they are bringing out a special limited edition AC30, hand-wired in the UK. It uses turret boards (the long narrow ones that look like tag-boards) and has Celestion alnico silver speakers (also made in the UK). Price Ģ3749 (equivalent to $4945).
Seems a lot of money, but might be a good investment if you wrap it in bubble-wrap and leave it in a climate-controlled vault. Or you could gig with it until the Tolex starts to peel off for that vintage look.

[rjb]

No, no, no. Everyone knows that the four food groups are:

Fat, Salt, Alcohol and Caffeine.

BASIC food groups are:
Fat, Salt, Sugar and Caffeine.
You can make alcohol from sugar, but not vice-versa.
Just like you can live in your car, but you can't drive your house.

-rb

[glebert]

BASIC food groups are:
Fat, Salt, Sugar and Caffeine.
You can make alcohol from sugar, but not vice-versa.
Just like you can live in your car, but you can't drive your house.

-rb

Some of us don't have that kind of time on our hands.

[g1]

BASIC food groups are:
Fat, Salt, Sugar and Caffeine.
You can make alcohol from sugar, but not vice-versa.
Just like you can live in your car, but you can't drive your house.

-rb

Sez you.

[Gnobuddy]

Price Ģ3749 (equivalent to $4945)...might be a good investment...

As more and more musicians from the rock-n-roll era head to their final great gig in the sky, I really wonder if, or for how long, products like this Vox anniversary edition might hold their value.

Like many here, I've repeatedly been turned off by kazoo-sounding "amp models" using digital signal processing, but they are slowly getting better, and less kazoo-like. This one (Atomic Amplifire 12) is $800 USD, one-fifth of the price of that $5000 anniversary Vox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqF-m70fwdA

I am not the target market for that $5000 Vox (it's probably aimed at middle-aged doctors, dentists, and lawyers with well padded bank accounts), but if I was forced to choose between the $5000 Vox and the $800 digital thingummajigger, I'd get the fake digital one.

Luckily for me, I can build my own valve guitar amps for a fraction of the price of the Atomic Amplifire, so I'm not faced with that quandary!

-Gnobuddy

[J M Fahey]

Some of us don't have that kind of time on our hands.

Some do

I used to follow posts by a guy called SM0VPO (or something like that), VERY resourceful, published lots of killer simple RF projects, transmitters and receivers, and practical stuff , including homemade PCBs, even created a series of symbols allowing to make cool very compact PCBs on ... Paint!!!!

Fact is, he was a Technical Sergeant in the RAF, and spent years in Saudi Arabia maintaining Radar systems, Aviation electronics, Communications, etc. and he was practically locked inside the Base.
No question about going downtown to order parts, he had to use the Base official military computer, even less "going to town on weekends to get some fun"

BIG problem was getting something to drink (besides coffee or mint tea) because alcohol is absolutely forbidden, getting caught with some means prison .... and manufacturing some might mean death, so all Britons there had to be ... um .... creative ... literally.

*After* he retired and moved to Sweden for good, he published 1001 recipes on brewing "sugar beer/wine" since sugar and yeast are of course freely available, and on flavouring the concoctions to taste somewhat like wine/cider/etc. or to distill it into gin/cognac/vodka/etc.

The stills were masters of ingenuity, made out of common threaded galvanized pipe which could later be disassembled into innocuous looking plumbing.

Harry's Homebrew Homepage

the booze specific page: Index

bit check his killer projects and ideas.

[Chuck H]

Was a Champ considered "pro stuff?" Actually asking, that is quite a bit before my time. Looking at a Silvertone catalog (which I would consider "mass market") from 1959 the cheapest amp was $25, which is $212 in today's dollars.

The 1959 Champ was indeed pro stuff. The whole Fender line at that time was pro. You chose the size of amp you wanted based on your volume needs and portability desires. It probably wasn't before the early 60's that Fender even considered their smaller amps to be anything other than pro tools and began to pitch the still popular designs as "student" amps. But "student" then meant you were studious about it. Society and culture were less tolerant of frivolity. So you bought good stuff. Fender never assumed to compete in the budget market before the BF era I think. And I think they always maintained a posture of quality above the "affordable" market. Like Enzo said, some of the actual cheap offerings were made of press board and you can hardly compare a Teisco guitar to a Fender. So... Any additional expense to even those cheapy models were unavoidable because of technology and manufacturing restrictions. Which is really the main reason good quality gear today is so affordable. In the early Holocene it might take you two days to knapp a quality stone blade and haft to a piece of antler. Another relative day of opportunistic foraging time could easily be added for the materials acquisition. Now you can buy a decent knife for a half hours wages. That's maybe 1/100th the price!!! And it will work better, be easier to maintain and last longer. Same principal stretched out 6000 years instead of 60

EDIT: FWIW in 1981 the Champ was a truly cheap simulacrum of it's predecessor with particle board construction and a cheesy little OT. That's about $444 today. In fact if you follow the Champ price point through it's production you'll find that it actually went down in price relative to inflation with each passing year. But now consider that even in 1981 it was a fairly high quality tool comparatively speaking. Up until that time a guitar amp was something you maintained and kept using. You might spend the cost of the amp on maintenance during it's lifetime. So, $888 for for the rest of your life. Now, to be fair let's work with the same materials and shoot for a respected brand. But also to be fair let's shoot for similar features (or lack thereof). So... An Epiphone or Vox or even a modern Fender product will set you back retail $200. They're made with cheaper materials and in some cases components that don't last as long. They're made on some flimsy boards with board mounted sockets, jacks and pots, plastic switches made with thinner, lower quality plated metals and most have a DNR strapped to their cred (do not repair). I'll guess that for a lifetime of use you'd need to buy four, plus at least a little maintenance like tubes or something. So that ends up being about the same, dudn' it.?.

[Justin Thomas]

Agree for the most part... probably just a difference in perspective. I saw the Champ indeed as a "student" model and not "pro," but Fender looked farther down the line - where do Pros come from? Students. Give them a good-sounding sturdy "student" amp & guitar and a very positive learning experience, what'll they get when they graduate from the living room to the pub? Another Fender.

One thing I've always liked about Fender, they never looked at beginners as frivolous or careless. And it's why I tell parents to spend $200 on a Squire instead of $100 on a Wal-Mart special. The other thing being, that Squire can be upgraded over time into a rather fine instrument.

Justin

[Gnobuddy]

The other thing being, that Squire can be upgraded over time into a rather fine instrument.

I think there is a good case to be made that some Squiers are already rather fine instruments straight out of the cardboard box. The Deluxe, Vintage Modified, and Classic Vibe series fall into this category, IMO. Maybe the Standard too, if you want a really low-output guitar with squeaky-clean tones reminiscent of early Mark Knopfler stuff.

My experience has been that the Squire models mentioned above have better factory setups and playability than any of the Mexican Fender Stratocasters I've tried in stores.

-Gnobuddy

[Gnobuddy]

...spent years in Saudi Arabia...

I once had a co-worker who was offered a very high-paying job working for a major petroleum company. The catch was that he would be located in Saudi Arabia.

He told me he thought it over, but the prospect of spending years in a place where you couldn't go out for a drink, couldn't talk to women, couldn't have a party, and might be executed for any one of several offences that are not offences at all to Westerners, was too daunting to contemplate.

-Gnobuddy

[Chuck H]

One thing I've always liked about Fender, they never looked at beginners as frivolous or careless. And it's why I tell parents to spend $200 on a Squire instead of $100 on a Wal-Mart special. The other thing being, that Squire can be upgraded over time into a rather fine instrument.

A case for that can be made from a time when Fender started having the Squire line made in Japan. People were so impressed with the quality that they started buying Squires for road work instead of standard Strats and Teles. The following year Fender started having the standards made in Japan to improve the price point and now those guitars are sought after as excellent, not quite collectible used instruments. Ever since then Fender seems to have made a point of keeping the quality of the Squire line above expectations for the price point regardless of country of manufacture. Just one guys observation. I never had a Japanese Squire, but I've played a few and I did have a Japanese Strat. All excellent guitars after a pro setup.

EDIT: P.S. Looking through some of my lit I see that you're right. Fender was marketing the Champ as a "student" amp as early as 1950! But then, you wouldn't buy a student a Deluxe, would you? It's worth noting that the Champ was still marketed as part of a package with their lap steel guitars as a pro package until well after that though. So we're both right. To a point the Champ was the smallest of pro line and made just like they were (only smaller) for a long time. As the smallest it was also the most affordable, and marketed as such because Fender just didn't make cheap amps. I don't mean to say they were bent on quality. They cut corners wherever they thought they could for sure. They just drew their line in a different place than some other guys and they always intended to offer a product that was of greater value than it's expense in dollars. Where many truly cheap amps were only worth what you paid for them in dollars and perhaps even less in value.

[J M Fahey]

FWIW my Son was last year in Orange County (not the main LA city) and told me he wanted to buy a Jazz Bass.
He was thinking the Mexican one as a good halfway compromise between quality and cost.

Only problem is that being in a Suburb and quite a few miles away from downtown, his only practical option was a small neighbourhood type GC, probably as small as they one, so not much option, if any at all.

And he already knows that brand and model alone donīt guarantee much.
OK, I told him, hang out at the shop , many days if needed, and when a *good* Bass player comes in, ask him for help.

In 4 or 5 days a Filipino middle aged Bass Player appeared, a real Pro, clearly a Session player or something.
- "Ok kid, Iīm searching one for my Nephew, Iīll also pick one for you"
He tried everything available, picked one for himself and gave my Son another.

- "But ... but ... itīs an *Indonesian* Squire ... I can afford a better one !!!! "
_ "Boy, THIS is the second best Jazz Bass in this shop, any model, any brand, any price, Iīm picking the best one for me and you buy this Squier for you, donīt let it go, donīt accept another"

He brought it back, itīs very nicely made but the point is that all Customers who see or play it praise it to high Heaven.
Not a player so I canīt comment on playability or comfort, but it sure does sound killer .... for all of 300 bucks (plus 150 for a strong case).

He was somewhat worried about Customs but a long haired tatooed young guy was X Raying his luggage and said, smiling: "looks like somebody is a Slapper !!! go ahead !!!" nothing to complain about

[Jazz P Bass]

As far as the Champ goes, I will never understand the reasoning behind that crappy little, toneless, short bandwidth speaker.

[Chuck H]

As far as the Champ goes, I will never understand the reasoning behind that crappy little, toneless, short bandwidth speaker.

No Champ that ever left my bench still had it in place (there have been four). In fact, since all the Champs I've worked over were silvers (so no one cares ) they all got a ten inch speaker. Two got new output transformers. I still have one of the original OT's from a late 70's unit. I may use it for a parallel 12au7 power amp. My concern is that there's just not enough steel there for any bottom end even for a 1W amp!?! We'll see. Otherwise I'll use it as a reverb transformer.