Wedge-shaped guitar speaker cabinet?

[clintonb]

Have any of you ever seen a guitar speaker cabinet that is shaped like a wedge, like a stage monitor speaker? Or have any of you ever put a guitar speaker (or should I say driver) into a wedge-shaped monitor speaker? If so, how did it sound?

My band's soundman often complains about too much guitar sound coming from the stage, he wants to control more of the sound through the PA. So I was thinking it might be useful if I had a wedge-shaped guitar cabinet out in front of me that points back at me as opposed to a traditional cabinet pointing out at the audience. I suppose I could put my amp out in front of me, but I don't trust the drunks out on the dance floor.

- Clint

[Enzo]

Sure, comes to mind one model Peavey made 20 years ago. But try a coupe things first. Lean the amp back at an angle on stage. Then it will beam up at your head on stage, but will be shooting over the heads in the house. All those years Fender has been putting lean back legs on the sides of their amps. That is what they are for. people make speaker/amp stands that do the same. They look a little like a chair.

There is also a product called the Beam Blocker. Ted Weber makes it I think?? It is a little round deflector that mounts in front of the speaker in your cab, and it dispersed the beam coming out the speaker and spreads it to the sides. SImple, but folks say it works for them.

But there is no reason you couldn't make a floor wedge for a guitar speaker.

[bob p]

soundmen always complain about too much guitar, don't they? maybe some of this is because guitarists are so famous for wanting to use too much amp. i was guilty of that in my youth.

it would be helpful to know some other factors to put your situation into context -- like what kind of amp you're using, what kind of venue you play, and what sort of sound reinforcement gear you're using. the fact that you've got a sound guy suggests that you're in a fairly serious professional environment. as Enzo mentioned those tilt-back fender designs are great on-stage. i've seen lots of big name touring acts where the guitarists use tiny little fender amps on-stage and mic them. IIRC the guys like Eric Johnson and Trent whatshisname from Phish little Fenders like a Deluxe Reverb or a Vibrolux Reverb as a monitor, nothing more. granted, that won't give you as much stage presence if you're the Marhsall Stack sort of guy. If you're into Marshalls, a 4x12 slant cab that angles two of the speakers upwards can help in this regard.

i've always thought that guitarists only need big amps when the band/venue has a small PA system that's limited to use on the vocals, and the guitarist has to rely solely on his amp to project his sound. conversely, guitarists seem to be better off with smaller amps when the band/venue has a large PA system that's used for the entire band.

if the band's PA system is good enough (and you trust your sound guy), maybe the ticket would be to go for a smaller amp cabinet and use it as a monitor angled upwards. All that you need is an amp that gives you enough volume for you to be able to hear yourself. then you can let the sound guy mic your amp and take care of the mix. best of all, you get to lug around a little amp instead of a big one!

just my two cents...

[Steve Conner]

Rocktron used to (still do) make a wedge-shaped 1x12" cab for just this application:
http://www.guitarplaza.com/rocs1speakca.html

I wanted one back in the 90s, but not now, unless they made me a custom tweed version

The big amp vs. small amp thing is always a matter of debate. I've always found that sound guys always want less guitar. The sound guy's dream amp is a Pod, while the guitarist is dreaming of a wall of Marshalls. But those big Marshall stacks were designed to project guitar right through a whole venue, back in the days when PAs were only used for vocals. A compromise has to be reached.

I've done sound for a few gigs, and I once had a guy turn up with a Dual Rectifier half-stack and a guitar with prongs. As both a sound guy and a guitarist, what was I going to do? :/

Luckily it was a big venue with a serious PA and lots of room on stage, so we could actually get his amp up to 11 without imploding anyone's ears or drowning out the foldback for the other band members.

[clintonb]

Response to some of your questions:

I usually play a Gibson Goldtone GA-15RV (6 watt/15 watt) amp through a Mesa 3/4 back 1x12 cab. I usually play in 6-watt triode mode, but sometimes use the 15-watt pentode mode to get more bottom. I usually have the volume at around 9:00 (so only about a 1/3 of the way up). I use the cabinet because it sounds fuller. The amp by itself tends to sound boxey. I mic it. So I'm definitely not a crankjoy.

The bars we've been playing in lately aren't small, they have plenty of room for dancing.

I turn up just loud enough to match the drums. Often when the soundman tells us guitarists to turn down, the bass player gets upset when we turn down to the level the soundman likes because he says the band just doesn't feel like it's rocking when the guitars are that quiet.

There must be something about guitars that drive soundmen crazy. I wonder if its the directional nature of the sound or the fact that the ear is more sensitive to frequencies in the guitar range. I notice he never tells the bass player to turn down, but then bass isn't really directional, it just seems to be everywhere. He never tells the drummer to play quieter, but he's center stage. It probably also doesn't help that both me and the other guitarist are on the same side of the stage (it's that way because we both also play keyboards and we need to be next to them).

I tried an amp stand at one gig so the amp would point at my head instead of at the audience. That was nice because I could hear how much more trebly the tone is when your head is right in front of the speaker. I don't think the soundman complained that night. But I also had it so quiet that the bass player complained about having trouble hearing the guitars. One of the guitar players from an old band I was in was in the audience that night and he said he couldn't stand playing that quiet. It felt like I was playing in a lounge band. Maybe I should try it again at a louder volume and see if the sound man complains. However, the amp stand took up too much room on that already cramped stage.

For the next gig I bought a weber beam blocker. I love it. I stopped using the amp stand after I bought the beam blocker, because the cabinet is no longer beamy. The highs are dispersed evenly. The tone directly in front of the speaker is no longer way brighter than the tone off to the side. I figured the soundman would be happy since the guitar was no longer beaming out at the audience, but I guess I was wrong.

Maybe I could use a combination of beam blocker and amp stand. But I get the feeling that as long as the amp is pointing forward (even tilted up and forward) that the guitar will sound like its coming from one side of the stage and the soundman will have to deal with balancing it with the signal coming out of the PA. That's when I got the idea to have the amp point back at me. I suppose I could also have it shoot across the stage, but that would be a little less convenient in my situation.

I figured a monitor wedge would be ideal since it is stable and points back at me. I thought about putting the amp up in front, but after having drunks knock my mic stand over in the past, I decided that wasn't such a great idea.

I thought about just putting the speaker cabinet on the amp stand in front of me, but drunks could knock that over too.

Since I have the beam blocker, I don't really need the amp stand, so perhaps I could have the cab just sit on the floor without a stand angling it back. But then, since my cab is partially open back, I suppose there is sound coming out of the back too. So maybe that wouldn't work. I suppose I could use a closed back cabinet.

- Clint

[Jag]

Yeah, I really like the beam blocker. Back in the day, we used to put duct tape on the grill cloth in front of the cones, did the same thing.

I used to be Steve Stevens in a Billy Idol tribute band about 20 years ago. Back then my nickname was "Mushroom Cloud" because I used to play REALLY loud. In that band, we had a really great sound and lighting crew, a tour bus and all the other perks the industry throws at a band to keep them from noticing how little they actually got paid. One day I got to sound check and my Hiwatt and Marshall were on top of road cases on the back line and there were two 2x12 wedges on either side of my vocal monitor (with a chunk of wood screwed to the grill over the cones). I looked out at the FOH guy with a "WTF!!!" expression on my face. He picked up the talk back mic and said "trust me", so I did. I had a great gig that night and never used my 4x12's in taht band again. It sounded great to me.

Some people really don't like having the speakers directly pointed at thier face (that's probably why the sound guys hate it too) but, for some it works. There's nothing wrong with trying it.

I really prefer the low wattage amp route though. I use what essentially amounts to a Champ style amp into a 2x12 Marshall cab miked.

[loudthud]

A guy I know plays really loud. He doesn't like Marshall slant cabs because they are too loud on stage. The straight cabs (never stacked) shoot the sound to the audience below ear level on stage. In the past he has used a Rivera 2x120W amp with a pair of 4x12 EV loaded cabs (ear plugs required). Currently he is only using 100 watts and a large piece of clear plexiglass about 1 foot in front of a single 4x12 cabinet. Sound guys can now tolerate him.

[JJGross]

Ever tried side washing your amp? Put it at the side of the stage pointed up at your ears, not your back. You should heap plenty, but very little goes offstage. Another benifit is that your bass player will likely hear it just fine too.

Personally, I fold a little guitar back at me in the vocal monitors. I run our sound onstage (power trio) and I put just enough coming back in the monitors that everyone in the band can hear me, but I'm still well below the vocals. My amp is tilted back at a steep angle so it's only pointing right at my ears, and from where I'm standing, it sounds like I'm coming from everywhere. Really nice & meaty, not bad for a 1x12 combo amp (it's a Fender HRDx with some mods like EL84 tubes among other things).

Cheers,
- JJ

[clintonb]

Steve,

Thanks for the tip about the Rocktron s-112 speaker. I just might get one. They are pretty cheap for a guitar cab.

- clint

[JJGross]

Found a used one for sale for $99:
http://www.musicgoround.com/gear/inv....asp?id=538801
Even with shipping that's pretty cheap.

Cheers

[bob p]

if your bass player and drummer can't hear you, that's a problem. you don't want the rhythm section losing the groove because they can't hear the rest of the band. the idea of having your guitar mic'd into the vocal monitor feed is a good one. that might help your bass player and drummer. another option might be to get two of those external cabs -- one for you and one for your bass player.

[clintonb]

JJ,

Thanks for the link for the Music Go Round link. I tried doing a search for one on Music Go Round and didn't get any results. I wonder how you manged to find one.

Actually, I looked at their shipping for guitar cabs and it starts at $45. Musician's Friend, and some other websites sell it new for $139 with free shipping.

- Clint

[clintonb]

Jag,

That was an interesting and informative anecdote. Thanks.

Actually, tonight at home I tried plugging my Gibson Goldtone GA-15RV combo into a wedge monitor speaker. Stock speaker. It actually didn't sound too bad. Doesn't sound as good as my Mesa 1x12 3/4 back cab with Celestion Vintage 30, but it sounds better than just the amp by itself. I also stood behind it, pretending I was the audience. You could still hear it, but it was quieter and muffled. I think the soundman could probably live with that. Later I'm going to try using a guitar speaker in the wedge.

I also tried the same test with my mesa cab. When I stood behind the mesa cab, I heard more highs than I did behind the monitor wedge. At first I thought it was because the back is partially open on that cab, but I suspect it's really because of the weber beam blocker dispersing the highs everywhere.


- Clint

[bob p]

i'm sure you already know that those open-backed cabinets project sound like dipoles, so a lot of sound comes out of the back as well as the front. so putting an open backed amp like a fender on the front of the stage, and aiming it back at you will still project a lot of sound out toward the crowd.

as an example of this, think of the original Fender woodie and Tweed amps. they were designed so that the player could put the amp in front of him on-stage, pointing out toward the crowd. he would then stand behind it, and he could still hear himself pretty well. well, at least that explains why the controls are mounted so that you could read the labels when you were standing behind the amp.

if you want a cab that's going to be loud in only one direction, anything open-backed would be working against you. i think a closed-back cab would be better for that.

hth.

[clintonb]

Today I tried putting a Celestion G12H-30 into the monitor wedge. It gave the tone more thump. But that speaker is much louder and more aggressive than the speaker that was in there. I think I like the original speaker better.

It turns out that the original speaker is a Celestion G12H-100. Isn't that a guitar speaker too? It also had some insulation stapled to the bottom of the cab. I wonder if the prior owner of the monitor was using it for guitar.

- Clint